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Split Thread Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla

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theprestige said:
Here, at least, I think I'm on solid ground when I say every corporation does everything it can to not pay taxes. Hell, I'm sure you do everything you can to not pay taxes. It's not a scam - it's not even unethical - to minimize your tax obligations.
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Someting tells me that a lot of new factories are the subject of payments to locate in specific areas, if only massive tax breaks.

As to unethical, I feel sure there's a few on here who would consider minimizing taxes unethical, but then they might well consider that private enterprise is unethical in itself.
 
theprestige said:
Here, at least, I think I'm on solid ground when I say every corporation does everything it can to not pay taxes. Hell, I'm sure you do everything you can to not pay taxes. It's not a scam - it's not even unethical - to minimize your tax obligations.
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A corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits long term. I suppose they could implement a strategy to pay a little more than the minimum in taxes if it enhanced their long term profitability - but that’s likely the exception rather than the rule, and they’d have to clearly explain that strategy to shareholders.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
And the haters keep piling it on. Deplorable.

. All these so-called 'progressives' showing their true colors.
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I know before he was trying to save the planet, one luxury sedan at a time.

However there is nothing "progressive" about a 3.5 ton, $100,000 dollar vehicle that looks like it was designed to turn uncooperative pedestrians into mincemeat.

If you actually think that people on the left should be cheering on a narcissistic billionaire who is trying to accumulate more capital than any private individual in history, then something has gone seriously wrong with the left.
 
FatherLukeduke said:
I know before he was trying to save the planet, one luxury sedan at a time.

However there is nothing "progressive" about a 3.5 ton, $100,000 dollar vehicle that looks like it was designed to turn uncooperative pedestrians into mincemeat.
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The Edsel was a mistake, but Ford has done great things as well. The Cybertruck is easily offset by the Falcon 9 and other achievements in commercial space launch.

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The problem is not finding things not to like about Elon Musk. There's plenty not to like about the guy. The problem is wanting to hate Musk unreservedly and deciding to ignore, dismiss, or lie about his laudable achievements in order to enable that hatred.
 
wrong.

Musk is a multi-billionaire. He needs NO ONE to defend him. Unless you spend 99% of your time advocating for the poor and powerless you don't get to shill for the single most powerful private citizen in the world the other 1%.

Anyone defending him is just trying get some para-social hype from associating themselves with him.
It's disgusting and pathetic.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
wrong.

Musk is a multi-billionaire. He needs NO ONE to defend him. Unless you spend 99% of your time advocating for the poor and powerless you don't get to shill for the single most powerful private citizen in the world the other 1%.

Anyone defending him is just trying get some para-social hype from associating themselves with him.
It's disgusting and pathetic.
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Okay, but to be clear: You do agree that Falcon 9 is a good thing, right? A significant and praiseworthy achievement in the history of human spaceflight, and in the context of the current market in space launch services?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I would agree if the technology was going to be shared.
Like this, it's just another monopoly
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That's not how technology works in practice. There are a LOT of cases where once someone demonstrates that something can be done, everyone else copies it, but showing it's possible is a major step forward.

Falcon has pushed forward reusability for everyone else as well, not just SpaceX. Everyone knows it can be done now, and so everyone is going to do it.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
https://www.businessinsider.com/elo...-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12?op=1


States pay billions to have a Tesla factory.
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In 2010, Tesla received a $465 million loan from an Energy Department program that offered funding to car companies making fuel-efficient cars. Tesla repaid the loan in 2013, about a decade earlier than it was required to.
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This is not a subsidy.

Nevada Governor signs $1.3 billion tax break package for electric car maker Tesla
The biggest chunk of the deal gives Tesla sales tax exemptions for 20 years, a perk estimated at $725 million.

Among the bills approved in both houses was a provision phasing out and eliminating 1970s-era tax credits for insurance companies, which backers said would free up about $125 million over five years beginning in 2016 for transferable tax credits to Tesla.

The package would also gut a pilot program approved just last year giving tax credits to the film industry, freeing up about $70 million for Tesla.

Another provision will require at least half of all workers hired by Tesla be Nevada residents
The governor's office estimates the 5 million-square-foot factory will create an immediate 3,000 construction jobs, 6,500 factory jobs and 16,000 indirect jobs once completed.
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It could be argued that tax exemptions or credits are effectively subsidies. But Nevada has done its sums. These 'subsidies' are really an investment. All those workers will be paying taxes, and the money they spend goes to other people in the state who also pay taxes. Nevada wouldn't be doing this if they didn't intend to come out on top.

The government may give tax breaks or exemptions to encourage businesses to act as they want. In this case they want that factory in Nevada, where it will make money for the state. It's not some kind of 'corporate welfare'. Any taxes that Tesla paid would just be passed on to the purchasers of their products anyway. Nevada is doing this to benefit its own residents, but we all want the stuff Tesla is making, to reduce global warming. So why knock it?

The problem is tax breaks for stuff we don't want, such as oil and gas exploration. Perversely, if the price of oil goes up it provides more incentive to extract 'tighter' oil that costs more to find and extract, which the oil companies are incentivized to do because the cost offsets their tax liability. This is why we have oil wells stuck out in the Gulf of Mexico and in the arctic, and why Canada is cooking up tar sands.

If only we had a way to reduce oil demand without creating extreme hardship, the price would go down and those sources would be uneconomic. Right now there are 1,400 defunct uncapped oil wells in the Gulf of Mexico, leaking methane which contributes to global warming. Oil companies can't be bothered capping them because it 'costs too much' (ie. they can get away with it). We don't want any more of that!
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Musk is a multi-billionaire. He needs NO ONE to defend him. Unless you spend 99% of your time advocating for the poor and powerless you don't get to shill for the single most powerful private citizen in the world the other 1%.

Anyone defending him is just trying get some para-social hype from associating themselves with him.
It's disgusting and pathetic.
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Nobody here is defending Musk. Some of us are just countering the disgusting and pathetic hatred that pervades this thread.

Some of the people associating themselves with it are just useful idiots. Others have more sinister motives. Some are afraid of what the future may bring and are desperately trying to avoid facing it. And some just want to see the World burn so they can bask in the light of their own egos.

What really annoys me is that all this hatred may be pushing Musk further down the rabbit hole, with possibly disastrous results. But even if Musk disappears they won't stop, because he's not their real target. He's just making it easier to attract more useful idiots.

You talk about 'advocating for the poor and powerless'. Let's talk about them for a bit.

Climate change and poverty
Climate change highly exacerbates existing inequalities through its effects on health, the economy, and human rights. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) Fourth National Climate Assessment Report found that low-income individuals and communities are more exposed to environmental hazards and pollution and have a harder time recovering from the impacts of climate change... According to the United Nations Development Programme, developing countries suffer 99% of the casualties attributable to climate change...

Mitigation efforts

Climate change mitigation (or decarbonisation) is action to limit climate change. This action either reduces emissions of greenhouse gases or removes those gases from the atmosphere. The recent rise in global temperature is mostly due to emissions from burning fossil fuels such as coal, oil, and natural gas. There are various ways that mitigation can reduce emissions. These are transitioning to sustainable energy sources, conserving energy, and increasing efficiency.
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Governments around the World have been trying to do something about it for a while, but they face stiff opposition that is making it extremely difficult to make the required progress. Most of that opposition is coming from their own citizens, who couldn't care less about the 'poor and powerless'. Many of them even imagine themselves being part of that group, despite actually being among the top 10%. In a just world, the people responsible for global warming (that's us) would at the very least not try to throw a spanner in the works of those who are trying to fix it.

But not here. Here the focus is on ripping it all down. "It's all a scam!", they cry without evidence, "Paid for with government subsidies!", as they trot out the same tired old hater talking points again. In their minds Tesla shouldn't even exist.

Well congratulations fellas, you are at the forefront of the movement to cancel a company whose stated mission is to "accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy" and are delivering on it. Why do you hate poor people?
 
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Look, people, it's the Diplomacy Principle, the Slave that has to constantly whisper in the Conqueror's Ear that he is "Just A Man":
you always, always band together against the top guy, for the sole reason that he is the top guy, and take every opportunity to take him down a peg.

People like Musk will always be surrounded by Yes-people and sycophants, and leeches like Alex Jones and the like who will grift through association.

for the functioning of ANY society, it is VITAL that we give the most powerful people as much **** as we can ALL THE TIME. Unless they are very obviously complete Angels we must constantly demand that they either do better or hand their wealth and power to someone who will. Otherwise, it's just a Monarchy by a different name.

Musk deserves to eat my and everyone else's **** for the rest of his life, because he thought he needed to buy Twitter to save his daughter from Communism, when he could have used the money to save The Maldives from extinction from Climate Change for the same price.

It is impossible for the people on the top to hold themselves accountable - it's up to us to provide that service for them.
 
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Ziggurat said:
That's not how technology works in practice.
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It's very much how technology should work when it is financed by taxpayer money.
The US would have no deficit if it would insist on keeping a large share in the companies it financed to get off the ground.
 
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