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Are professional bodies legally able to limit what their members do professionally, o

Gotcha,and apologies, little scatterbrained today.

I'd say that the association member already agreed to the ethics that forbade it, right? So they are going rouge, and going rouge means you're on your own, much like a vigilante can't count on police not charging him. Unless the governing association creates the niche that allows it, their ethics stand.


Actually that makes sense, you know. Had it been the case that the doc's licence were being revoked, then that would've been very different. But that's not the case, as Ziggurat pointed out, and as Google agrees. So, given that, what you say makes sense.

But again, while it makes sense, but the law doesn't always go by sense. So, while at the level of intuition I might kind-of agree with you, but what would be really satisfactory is if one actually knew if the courts ever had occasion to try such a case, and if so what was the outcome of it.
 
Actually that makes sense, you know. Had it been the case that the doc's licence were being revoked, then that would've been very different. But that's not the case, as Ziggurat pointed out, and as Google agrees. So, given that, what you say makes sense.

But again, while it makes sense, but the law doesn't always go by sense. So, while at the level of intuition I might kind-of agree with you, but what would be really satisfactory is if one actually knew if the courts ever had occasion to try such a case, and if so what was the outcome of it.

Well...Jack Kevorkian was convicted of murder in 1999?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
 
Yep, that agrees with my intuition. (My uninformed intuition, I'm afraid, but still.)

The only nuance I would add is that it's a case of "If the law requires that you DO NOT DO something that the Academy considers best practice, conform with the law. If the law OBLIGATES you to do something that the Academy does not, conform with the law."

I'm not sure it's a clear parallel with AMA stance on executions though. It would essentially create a situation where the state would have to be forcing a doctor to participate in order for the AMA to have no grounds for rescinding a medical license.

For actuaries, the kinds of situations that create those variances from ethical precepts are usually mandates that require a specific discount rate or morbidity assumption to be used, even if those assumptions don't match reality. For example, CMS defines the age factors that get used for ACA Marketplace plans... but the actual relational factors by age don't really match them, and also vary quite a bit from state to state and carrier to carrier. Some states use pre-defined area factors in the same way.

I don't think I've heard of a case where there's an obligation from the state to do something that would be a material violation of either professional precepts or of the actuarial standards of practice.
 
Gotcha,and apologies, little scatterbrained today.

I'd say that the association member already agreed to the ethics that forbade it, right? So they are going rouge, and going rouge means you're on your own, much like a vigilante can't count on police not charging him. Unless the governing association creates the niche that allows it, their ethics stand.

Damn pinkos...
 
Not really as far as I know. In the US anyway, for the most part professional licensure is controlled by the government but the standards for licensure are more or less determined by the professional organizations themselves. The government just adopts those standards, sometimes with exceptions or additions. And its almost entirely up to the state not the national organization.

I can only speak to Engineering and to a lesser extent architects but....I could be censured by the ASCE but they can't take my license away. That would be up to the state where I have my license. Someone would have to file a complaint and the board in that state would review my case and could take my license to practice engineering in that stat.

The closest thing in my profession is the group trying to get the various professional organizations to say its unethical to design prisons. They can do that but it would not prevent someone from getting a license or keeping there license unless the state board, which is a government body, also adopted that policy.
 
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As far as I am concerned, any professional body can adopt a Code of Conduct, and expel members who do not meet those standards. If that Code says, in essence, "members shall not perform executions", they would be perfectly within their rights to expel or deny membership to people who do.
 
Not really as far as I know. In the US anyway, for the most part professional licensure is controlled by the government but the standards for licensure are more or less determined by the professional organizations themselves. The government just adopts those standards, sometimes with exceptions or additions. And its almost entirely up to the state not the national organization.

I can only speak to Engineering and to a lesser extent architects but....I could be censured by the ASCE but they can't take my license away. That would be up to the state where I have my license. Someone would have to file a complaint and the board in that state would review my case and could take my license to practice engineering in that stat.

Funny thing that - This is very much not universal. US requires an appropriate license in order for a doctor to legally practice, but the government can neither grant nor rescind that license. Same thing with Lawyers. Many activities in the US require an accredited actuary in good standing to sign the document, thereby taking responsibility for the information contained within. But the government itself has no hand at all in providing those accreditations, and in the US only the AAA can remove professional designations.
 
As far as I am concerned, any professional body can adopt a Code of Conduct, and expel members who do not meet those standards. If that Code says, in essence, "members shall not perform executions", they would be perfectly within their rights to expel or deny membership to people who do.

Pretty much agree. Where it gets a bit hairy in the US is that doctors are required to be licensed by an appropriate medical body in order to practice medicine at all. So the legal right to be a practicing doctor requires a license that the governing body can revoke for reasons that have nothing to do with legality :). I don't disagree with it, really, it's just a bit roundabout.
 
Funny thing that - This is very much not universal. US requires an appropriate license in order for a doctor to legally practice, but the government can neither grant nor rescind that license. Same thing with Lawyers. Many activities in the US require an accredited actuary in good standing to sign the document, thereby taking responsibility for the information contained within. But the government itself has no hand at all in providing those accreditations, and in the US only the AAA can remove professional designations.

I am moderately surprised by this. I'd argue that probably because those organizations predate licensure and got more or less adopted as quasi govermental agencies. The State in question could easily just change the law governing medical/legal licenses.

ETA: I think you are wrong about doctors at least and probably the rest.
https://dpo.colorado.gov/PhysicianLicensingRequirements


https://www.mbc.ca.gov/Licensing/Physicians-and-Surgeons/

You get your license from the medical board of california not the AMA.
I'm going to double down on this, states adopt licensing requirements. They have no force of law unless the State says they do.
 
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Pretty much agree. Where it gets a bit hairy in the US is that doctors are required to be licensed by an appropriate medical body in order to practice medicine at all. So the legal right to be a practicing doctor requires a license that the governing body can revoke for reasons that have nothing to do with legality :). I don't disagree with it, really, it's just a bit roundabout.
A medical license can be granted on knowledge alone. It does not (or should not) require an ethical test.
 
I am moderately surprised by this. I'd argue that probably because those organizations predate licensure and got more or less adopted as quasi govermental agencies. The State in question could easily just change the law governing medical/legal licenses.

ETA: I think you are wrong about doctors at least and probably the rest.
https://dpo.colorado.gov/PhysicianLicensingRequirements


https://www.mbc.ca.gov/Licensing/Physicians-and-Surgeons/

You get your license from the medical board of california not the AMA.
I'm going to double down on this, states adopt licensing requirements. They have no force of law unless the State says they do.

No, you're right I was mistaken. The criteria for doctors and lawyers is by their governing bodies, the licensure is from the practice board within the state.
 
This thread title looks like it belongs in the Humor section.

The OP question belongs in the humor bin for sure. Can a professional organization set their own rules for membership?

Well d'uh, of course they can. How absurd (sorry for being rude). How is this even a question?

I do have to maintain my professional certification as an FNP in order to renew my ARNP license. But that's because the state dept of licensing delegates certain tasks to the national certifying body. Saves the state money and it lowers my relicensing fees.
 
No, you're right I was mistaken. The criteria for doctors and lawyers is by their governing bodies, the licensure is from the practice board within the state.
For MDs in the US (not sure about lawyers and I don't want to look it up at the moment) their licenses to practice are governed by their respective state boards which licenses them. From there however, many choose to be "board certified" in their specialities. Board certified is through their professional organizations.
 
Well...Jack Kevorkian was convicted of murder in 1999?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian


Again, that isn’t apples to apples, really. What this guy did was against the law, and that is what he was convicted for. In the case of the executions, the killings are court-sanctioned and state-executed. As such, I don’t think it can be illegal, else you’d have the possibility of the executioner getting prosecuted and convicted for murder, right?

I wasn’t talking about the doctor getting prosecuted for his role in the execution, should he choose to assist; but of the AMA getting sued by the doctor if/when it disbars him or expels him or otherwise penalizes him for helping do what the courts have generally mandated must be done.
 
The only nuance I would add is that it's a case of "If the law requires that you DO NOT DO something that the Academy considers best practice, conform with the law. If the law OBLIGATES you to do something that the Academy does not, conform with the law."

I'm not sure it's a clear parallel with AMA stance on executions though. It would essentially create a situation where the state would have to be forcing a doctor to participate in order for the AMA to have no grounds for rescinding a medical license.

For actuaries, the kinds of situations that create those variances from ethical precepts are usually mandates that require a specific discount rate or morbidity assumption to be used, even if those assumptions don't match reality. For example, CMS defines the age factors that get used for ACA Marketplace plans... but the actual relational factors by age don't really match them, and also vary quite a bit from state to state and carrier to carrier. Some states use pre-defined area factors in the same way.

I don't think I've heard of a case where there's an obligation from the state to do something that would be a material violation of either professional precepts or of the actuarial standards of practice.


Right, in that case your example isn’t apples to apples at all, agreed.

Incidentally, it was suggested in the other thread that there’s lots of other professions that do something equivalent. I couldn’t think of any, other than RCC priests at the confessional. I haven’t seen any other comparable examples here so far. (eta: See ahhell's post, that would be a direct equivalent, I think. Although that one's just a proposal, apparently.)
 
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Again, that isn’t apples to apples, really. What this guy did was against the law, and that is what he was convicted for. In the case of the executions, the killings are court-sanctioned and state-executed. As such, I don’t think it can be illegal, else you’d have the possibility of the executioner getting prosecuted and convicted for murder, right?

I wasn’t talking about the doctor getting prosecuted for his role in the execution, should he choose to assist; but of the AMA getting sued by the doctor if/when it disbars him or expels him or otherwise penalizes him for helping do what the courts have generally mandated must be done.

Yeah, I get that, but I think it follows naturally.

Q: Can the association dictate the ethics of it's members?
A: Yes, if the member agrees to them and is demonstrably (hence the precedent) willfully not in compliance. Should the member sue the association, I think it's a guaranteed loss on those grounds.

Again, if a lawyer is caught embezzling from her clients, pretty sure they would get disbarred, and we wouldn't be questioning if the Bar was in the right.
 
This thread title looks like it belongs in the Humor section.


Haha, true!

After I posted my OP and the post immediately after, I noticed the weird thread title, without knowing why that happened. And reported the OP, requesting for a title change. …But then the title change I’d suggested, which was more or less what I’d originally typed in, turned out to be too long, and I was asked for another title suggestion. So I reverted with another suggestion, along with a third as well, shorter than the second, just in case. …But no, even that third one was too long. …At which point I thought, no big deal, just let the thing stand as it is.

Incidentally, and FYI generally, the word limit for how long your thread title can be, it’s apparently 85 letters, and anything you type beyond that the software will simply snip off.
 
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Not really as far as I know. In the US anyway, for the most part professional licensure is controlled by the government but the standards for licensure are more or less determined by the professional organizations themselves. The government just adopts those standards, sometimes with exceptions or additions. And its almost entirely up to the state not the national organization.

I can only speak to Engineering and to a lesser extent architects but....I could be censured by the ASCE but they can't take my license away. That would be up to the state where I have my license. Someone would have to file a complaint and the board in that state would review my case and could take my license to practice engineering in that stat.

The closest thing in my profession is the group trying to get the various professional organizations to say its unethical to design prisons. They can do that but it would not prevent someone from getting a license or keeping there license unless the state board, which is a government body, also adopted that policy.


Yes, it’s the state that issues licences for doctors, not AMA, as I found out in the course of this thread.

What’s odd in this case, is that it is a matter of ethics, not technical standards. That’s weird right there, given that this isn't a matter of straightforward things like probity and honesty and conscientiousness etc, and given those particular ethics aren’t ironclad, not by a long shot. (That is, it might be argued, not necessarily conclusively, but plausibly certainly, that given that the execution is going to happen in any case, the doctor by lending his expertise can ensure less pain and a more humane death, so in a way analogous to assisting at euthanasia, as far as the principle of it. …To be clear, I’m not arguing that, but I’m saying some doctor might plausibly argue that and act accordingly, and who’s to say his ethics and his ethical conclusions are any less valid than the other thing? There’s no reason to imagine that the Hippopotamus oath, as TragicMonkey --- who else?! --- calls it, should be the last word on medical ethics, after all.) That’s very different than, for instance, some doctor not treating a patient who can’t pay --- not that that argument is ironclad either, there’s two sides to that as well I suppose, but at least the ethics of it are more straightforward than here.

That’s not to disagree with you, but to add to what you’d said. Absolutely, that proposal you mention, about the ethics of designing prisons, that’s a close equivalent, agreed.

-----

As far as the prisons thing, what’s that like? Most people agree? Some agree and some disagree? Strong opinions either way, or do most people not care one way or the other? ...What would be completely relevant, and very interesting, is if you’ve any idea at all about the legal validity of such a proposal. If this proposal you mention has been contested legally, and examined in a court of law, then whatever the judgment was --- whether holding it legally valid, or not, either way --- would probably apply to this AMA thing as well. I mean it does seem like a direct equivalent.
 

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