Why I should vote for Trump?

psionl0 seems to be saying the party that takes the US Constitution seriously should stop doing so, because taking the US Constitution seriously creates a clear distinction between that party and the other major party, and any such clear distinction will appear political to the party in thrall to an insurrectionist.
I have no idea how you made an inference like that from what you quoted. What I posted is quite plain.

As for the phrase, "the party that takes the US Constitution seriously", I think you mean "the party that takes the US Constitution seriously when it is interpreted the way they want it to be interpreted" and that is both parties.

Of course, I never said that either party should stop taking the constitution seriously. I am just pointing out that trying to prevent Trump from being elected through state courts is a poor strategy that could backfire. Republicans who might not otherwise vote if Trump is on the ballot may be encouraged to reconsider.
 
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psionl0 seems to be saying the party that takes the US Constitution seriously should stop doing so, because taking the US Constitution seriously creates a clear distinction between that party and the other major party, and any such clear distinction will appear political to the party in thrall to an insurrectionist.
I have no idea how you made an inference like that from what you quoted. What I posted is quite plain.

As for the phrase, "the party that takes the US Constitution seriously", I think you mean "the party that takes the US Constitution seriously when it is interpreted the way they want it to be interpreted" and that is both parties.
Yes.

On the one hand, we have a party that interprets the 14th Amendment's section 3 to mean someone who has (1) held the office of US President, (2) taken an oath to support the Constitution, but (3) subsequently engaged in insurrection is therefore (4) ineligible to hold any office under the United States, unless (5) that disability is removed by a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress.

On the other hand, we have a party that interprets the 14th Amendment's section 3 to mean Donald Trump "took a different oath from the one set forth in section 3, the presidency is not an 'office under the United States' ", the word "insurrection" can be interpreted in such a way as to argue Trump did not engage in insurrection, that (despite the contrary findings of two Colorado courts) "Nothing in Colorado's Election Code requires the Secretary of State to evaluate the qualifications of presidential primary candidates", that the Colorado district court "gave President Trump only 10 days to identify and disclose his rebuttal witnesses and 18 days to identify and disclose his rebuttal experts", "did not issue findings of fact and conclusions of law within 48 hours of that hearing, as required by section 1-4-1204(4)", relied "heavily on the Final Report of the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol..., which the court admitted into evidence over President Trump's hearsay objections", relied upon the testimony of a professor "whom the district court qualified as an expert on political extremism", and held that "section 1-4-1204(4) gives courts" authority to "hear the challenge and assess the validity of all alleged improprieties" and "issue findings of fact and conclusions of law." (All italics as in Trump's brief.) Furthermore, the brief from which I am quoting complained that "The district court went on to hold that President Trump had 'engaged in insurrection' within the meaning of section 3".

That brief also argues that the text of Colorado's section 1-4-1203(2)(a) means a party that is able to field "at least one" qualified candidate is, as a consequence, allowed to place unqualified candidates on the ballot, regardless of whether the Colorado Secretary of State or Colorado's courts correctly conclude any such additional candidates are unqualified. What's more, Trump's brief argues that Colorado's requirement that candidates "must be qualified to hold office before" their name is added to the ballot is unconstitutional because a candidate might be less than 35 years old at the time of the primary but reach the age of 35 by the time of the general election. As if that weren't enough to reject everything 1-4-1203(2)(a) says about qualifying for a primary ballot, 1-4-1203(2)(a) fails to mention the possibility that an insurrectionist candidate who is "currently disqualified under section 3...can seek congressional removal of his disability. The court also dismissed out of hand President Trump's argument that section 3 bars individuals only from holding office, and not from running for or being elected to office."

That's not to mention the fact that "President Trump is the leading candidate for the nomination for President of the United States of one of two major political parties", and (in 2020) "received more than 74 million votes nationally, and more than 1.3 million votes in Colorado alone". (Except, of course, Trump thought that fact was important enough to mention in his brief, because popularity is more important than constitutional qualifications.)

Trump and his party say "Congress—not a state court—is the proper body to resolve questions concerning a presidential candidate's eligibility." They say "section 3 is not self-executing." Even if it were, they say "Even if section 3 does not require enforcement legislation to have effect, the lack of such legislation deprives the courts of judicially manageable standards." And they complain that "states have different standards", and words such as "engage" and "insurrection" "are unclear and subject to wildly varying standards." Trump and his party conclude that presidential eligibility is not something that can be decided by courts; that question is a "fundamentally legislative" exercise that is "properly suited for Congressional—rather than judicial—resolution."

Trump's brief goes on to say that even if courts such as the US Supreme Court had the authority to interpret what the US Constitution says about eligibility for office, section 3 of Amendment 14 does not explicitly mention the presidency. According to Trump and his party, the idea that someone who holds the office of US President holds "any office, civil or military, under the United States" is a reading that "defies common sense". Furthermore, "It is undisputed that President Trump never took such an oath as a member of Congress, as a state legislator, or as a state executive or judicial officer." "Lastly, section 3 cannot apply to President Trump unless the president qualifies as an 'officer of the United States' ", which is not so according to Trump and his party.

Now we get to what is, in my opinion, the relevant factual question. According to Trump and his party, "the events of January 6th, 2021, were not 'insurrection' as that term is used in Section 3." That was nothing more than a recent example of "political protests that have turned violent." Because what happened on January 6th was not the only example of violent protest in America's history, "January 6 was not insurrection and thus no justification for invoking section 3." Besides, "President Trump never told his supporters to enter the Capitol....To the contrary, his only explicit instructions called for protesting 'peacefully and patriotically'...."

The above is, of course, nothing more than a brief summary of how Trump and his party interpret the US Constitution.

Of course, I never said that either party should stop taking the constitution seriously. I am just pointing out that trying to prevent Trump from being elected through state courts is a poor strategy that could backfire. Republicans who might not otherwise vote if Trump is on the ballot may be encouraged to reconsider.
Yes, someone who is more concerned with political considerations than with taking the US Constitution seriously might regard the political impact as more important than the rule of law or respecting the US Constitution.
 
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Yes, someone who is more concerned with political considerations than with taking the US Constitution seriously might regard the political impact as more important than the rule of law or respecting the US Constitution.
Are you saying that the SC takes the constitution seriously? If they side with Trump on his appeal then he will be handed the presidency on a platter.
 
psion10 said:
Of course, I never said that either party should stop taking the constitution seriously. I am just pointing out that trying to prevent Trump from being elected through state courts is a poor strategy that could backfire. Republicans who might not otherwise vote if Trump is on the ballot may be encouraged to reconsider.

Yes, someone who is more concerned with political considerations than with taking the US Constitution seriously might regard the political impact as more important than the rule of law or respecting the US Constitution.

I tend to agree that the failure of any of the legal actions against Trump will be, er, trumpeted as proof, and believed at least by the Trumpianity congregants and many Trump-leaning undecideds, that all of the legal actions against Trump are political. To claim that the movement to ban Trump from ballots carries no risk of making him stronger is not realistic. Trump supporters and sympathizers are in general not motivated by logic and reason, and no amount of explanation of why the 14th amendment issue is a legitimate and reasonable issue that needs to be explored will have any effect on them.
 
Crossbow said:
Read the article again.

OK.

I did re-read the article.

So can please now tell me what is the point that you are trying to make?


Reluctantly. As the Nevada process was already gone over days ago, and more succinctly, on another thread here...

Frank Newgent said:
JayUtah said:
He is not disqualified from the NV ballot.

He simply did not apply for the ballot correctly.

It's even murkier than that. The article linked to above doesn't really explain what's going on.

There will be a state-run GOP primary in Arizona. It has absolutely no effect on the nomination. There will also be a party-run GOP caucus in Arizona. The caucus—and only the caucus—determines who gets Arizona's GOP delegates in the national convention. The fact that Trump isn't on the ballot for the state-run primary has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on his eligibility for office, or even whether Arizona can vote its delegates for him for the nomination.

Arizona state law mandates a primary election. The Arizona GOP basically said, "Aw, that's cute."


That´s how I understand it, too, though it is Nevada being discussed not Arizona.

Confusing process Republicans are being subjected to there. Here is a link from the original story (glad JU actually read it unlike anybody else who commented).

https://thenevadaindependent.com/ar...at-will-exclude-candidates-who-run-in-primary
 
Yeah, since the ice sheets (non-moving glaciers) are melted back to expose where the Vikings dropped their cool stuff, that means something. The ice sheet must have been at the same level it is now. So yeah, we're looking 1500 years into the past where the items were found. To me, that means the ice sheet increased in size at some point for some reason and now it's back to where it was 1500 years ago. Perhaps we're currently reversing "Global Cooling" which was a thing in the 1970's.



That's interesting. So you consider everyone that supports Trump "filthy"? How about Black voters that support Trump? Would you say "those filthy Black voters that support Trump are scum"?

Careful, your Swastikas are showing...

It's not being a Nazi to oppose the treason of Trump is and his filthy supporters. A MAGA hat is the same as a Swastika arm band.
 
That's interesting. So you consider everyone that supports Trump "filthy"? How about Black voters that support Trump? Would you say "those filthy Black voters that support Trump are scum"?

Careful, your Swastikas are showing...

Uninformed. Uneducated. Very clean. As much shampoo as needed.
 
Sorry if I sound dense, but I still can not understand just what it is that you are trying to say.

Therefore, please clarify.

Trump didn't qualify for the Nevada primary, yes. But it doesn't matter because all the delegates to the convention are being selected at the Nevada Republican caucus. The primary is meaningless.
 
Tax policies influenced by and based in strong laissez faire capitalism.

Not really. They're influenced by corporatism, lobbying, and corruption. It's not laissez faire capitalism that caused this, but the ever expanding influence of special interests. That's dumb policy, definitely. But it's not based in LF cap.
 
Not really. They're influenced by corporatism, lobbying, and corruption. It's not laissez faire capitalism that caused this, but the ever expanding influence of special interests. That's dumb policy, definitely. But it's not based in LF cap.

Corporate wants you to tell the difference between the two pictures
 
I thought that was how laisser-faire works. Well, perhaps not corruption.
Laisser-faire capitalism means that the government is strictly hands off (no taxes or regulation).

But when corporations grow large enough then it is no longer laisser-faire. The government starts to favour them over smaller competitors (with biased laws and tax policies etc).
 
I thought that was how laisser-faire works. Well, perhaps not corruption.

A functioning market requires robust institutions. Rule of law, for instance. If judges can be bribed so that the person with the biggest pocketbook wins whatever cases they are involved in, then the market isn't going to efficiently allocate resources anymore. Regulatory capture is another example of institutions not functioning correctly to allow for an efficient market, but it comes about when large firms are able to lobby government to implement the regulations that keep their competitors out of business.

The idea that anything that business people do is "capitalism" is just false. An efficient market requires specific government policies and institutions to function well, and it's entirely possible (and common!) for business to subvert those institutions, and even to use them to their own ends. Corruption often leads to government acting to enforce the will of particular businesses, to the detriment of the efficiency of the market.
 
It's not being a Nazi to oppose the treason of Trump is and his filthy supporters. A MAGA hat is the same as a Swastika arm band.

Says the person happily supporting genocide in Gaza and Ukraine. I knew there were perspective issues among Biden supporters but this one is a doozy!
 
Tax policies influenced by and based in strong laissez faire capitalism.

Have you ever filed your own taxes?

It's not possible to examine the complexity of the US tax code and come to a reasoned conclusion that it constitutes leaving anyone alone. Interfering in the economy is the entire point. It's filled to the brim with "deductions" (read: incentives) for this or that behavior precisely because Congress has no interest in "laissez faire", regardless of what anyone might proclaim. I can't believe it's not obvious to you that there's nothing "laissez faire" about corporate welfare.
 

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