Axxman300
Philosopher
JFK had Addison's Disease. The CIA would have juiced his medications if they felt the need to end him. And the CIA still teaches poison-making at "The Farm".
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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII
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Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
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I just posted this in the new JFK assassination thread. Probably should have been here.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14218043#post14218043
Pretty much sums things up.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14218043#post14218043
Pretty much sums things up.
Axxman300
Philosopher
It launched the Conspiracy-Theory Industrial Complex.
bknight
Master Poster
The poll, here, indicates nearly 3/4s believes LHO acted alone, no conspiracy.
I'm glad I'm with the majority here, but sad so many people have been duped in the general population.
Gord_in_Toronto
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You have to look at some of the joke responses and note too that the poll allows for multiple responses. As a WAG I would guess only a couple of people on this forum think it was anyone but Oswald acting alone.
Hans
Philosopher
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On quora this fellow brought up what I think are old and hoary conspiracy ideas:
Either that or Oswald discovered a way to be in two places at the same time.
We are told Oswald went to a shooting range, made sure everyone knew he was Lee Harvey Oswald and was firing at other people’s targets. We are told Oswald went to Mexico City and visited the Cuban and Russian embassies. Those two events were on the same day.
We are told Oswald went to one post office and bought a money order and to another post office and mailed the money order to Klein’s Sporting Goods. Post offices were open from 8 to 5. Oswald was at work that day from 8 to 5.
We are told Oswald went to a car dealership and test drove a car at high speeds. He made sure the salesman knew he was Lee Harvey Oswald. We are also told Oswald had never driven.
We are told Oswald fired three shots from the 6th floor window at 12:30. Witnesses put him on the second floor shortly before and shortly after that time and witnesses said he did not come down the stairs.
I don't remember the one about the car though or why its even important?
https://qr.ae/pKD4Ft
Either that or Oswald discovered a way to be in two places at the same time.
We are told Oswald went to a shooting range, made sure everyone knew he was Lee Harvey Oswald and was firing at other people’s targets. We are told Oswald went to Mexico City and visited the Cuban and Russian embassies. Those two events were on the same day.
We are told Oswald went to one post office and bought a money order and to another post office and mailed the money order to Klein’s Sporting Goods. Post offices were open from 8 to 5. Oswald was at work that day from 8 to 5.
We are told Oswald went to a car dealership and test drove a car at high speeds. He made sure the salesman knew he was Lee Harvey Oswald. We are also told Oswald had never driven.
We are told Oswald fired three shots from the 6th floor window at 12:30. Witnesses put him on the second floor shortly before and shortly after that time and witnesses said he did not come down the stairs.
I don't remember the one about the car though or why its even important?
https://qr.ae/pKD4Ft
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Axxman300
Philosopher
The firing range incident has never been confirmed, but it happened after he returned from Mexico City.
Oswald got an hour for lunch, it's a ten minute walk from the TSBD to the nearest Post Office.
Lee Oswald didn't know how to drive until 1963, and this story is BS.
Only one person saw Oswald on the 2nd floor (ground floor), and that was a DPD officer who ran in after the shots were fired. He claims he got into the TSBD within 90 seconds, but the time if probably wrong since it's a guess. But plenty of time for Oswald to get downstairs.
Oswald got an hour for lunch, it's a ten minute walk from the TSBD to the nearest Post Office.
Lee Oswald didn't know how to drive until 1963, and this story is BS.
Only one person saw Oswald on the 2nd floor (ground floor), and that was a DPD officer who ran in after the shots were fired. He claims he got into the TSBD within 90 seconds, but the time if probably wrong since it's a guess. But plenty of time for Oswald to get downstairs.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Wow. The old stories weren't good enough... these are new and improved.
As the above response notes, these two events happened months apart. The Warren Commission dealt with most of these incidents here:
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-6.html#contacts
Oswald went to Mexico City in late September. The shooting range incidents happened over a period of two months prior to the assassination.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-6.html#contacts
One witness named Malcolm H. Price, Jr. reported seeing "Oswald" on September 28th, 1963, when Oswald was in Mexico City. The person Price interacted with did NOT identify himself as Oswald. Price came forward after the assassination to claim he believed he interacted with Oswald. But these types of misidentification are common in high-profile cases. Folks around when Elvis Presley died may recall all the various sightings of "Elvis" reported throughout the country. Nobody was trying to frame Elvis for anything, and this reported sighting doesn't establish anyone was trying to frame Oswald, either.
Price's testimony:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/price_m.htm
Depository workers did not punch a clock. The "different post offices" claim stems from an apparent assumption about what a number on the postmark means - conspiracy theorists assume it denoted the particular post office, which was miles from the closest one. More than likely, it is a far more benign explanation, like a machine number in the post office Oswald purchased the money order. Moreover, conspiracy theorists don't explain what the conspirators hoped to accomplish by purchasing the money order at one location and mailing it from another. Were they actively trying to expose the conspiracy?
This one is true, I believe. The salesperson - Albert Bogard - who interacted with Oswald mentioned the name to several co-workers. However, there is nothing mysterious about this. Oswald had been taking driving lessons from Ruth Paine, whom his wife was living with while Oswald lived in one room in a rooming house. He had gone to take his driving test but the Division of Motor Vehicles place was closed for Veterans Day, I believe it was. He then went to the showroom - the Warren Commission concluded otherwise - and took his "driving test" that way, telling the salesman he was interested in buying a new car. He also told the salesman he couldn't buy it that day, but he'd be coming into some money in the near future. " And I made some figures, and he told me that he wasn't ready to buy, that he would be in a couple or 3 weeks, that he had some money coming in."
Early conspiracy authors suggested this was Oswald, and he was expecting money for shooting the President - although they didn't explain how Oswald could even begin to think he could spend any money from a jail cell, given the amount of evidence pointing to him as the shooter (see below).
And what's suspicious about a 24-year-old acting impetuously? Nothing that I can see.
Bogard's testimony:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bogard.htm
One of the two witnesses who descended the stairs said they left immediately after the shooting, and if they were on the stairs - and didn't see or hear Oswald - then he could not have descended from the sixth floor. More than likely, they left a minute or two after the shooting, and Oswald had already descended by that time.
- We do know J.C.Day took possession of the rifle and noted its serial number of C2766.
- We also know Klein's business records reflect the rifle bearing that serial number being shipped to PO Box 2915.
- We know Oswald opened that PO Box 2915.
- We know the money order used to purchase the C2766 rifle was in Oswald's handwriting.
- We know noted fingerprint expert Vincent Scalise examined photos of the trigger guard taken by J.C.Day and determined the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the C2766 weapon were Oswald's prints.
- We know there are photos of Oswald in possession of that weapon, taken by his wife.
- We know the three shells found in the Depository, the two large fragments found in the limo, and the one nearly-whole bullet found at Parkland Hospital were all fired from the C2766 weapon, to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
So, all that evidence is falsified, or the witness who said they left the fourth floor immediately after the shooting is simply mistaken. Your call. I know what my call is.
Because Oswald lied to a car salesman and said he would be able to buy it in a few weeks. The incident happened about two weeks before the assassination.
HSienzant
Philosopher
There were numerous such reported incidents. The one from Price happened on September 28th, but was most likely just a case of mistaken identity.
45 minutes for lunch, but they didn't punch a clock. The postmark time is early in the morning, as I recall. Oswald could have purchased the money order and mailed the envelope ordering the weapon in ten minutes, assuming he prepared the coupon earlier. If he showed up ten or fifteen minutes late, nobody noticed.
That's what the Commission concluded. But given the timing of the actual driving test Oswald expected to take at the DMV and the test drive incident, I think it was actually Oswald who did show up at the car showroom and take that test-drive.
Here's Ruth Paine's testimony that contains the test drive Oswald expected to take:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/paine_r1.htm
(search for "driver's license" to find the first mention and read from there).
He went on November 9th to take the DMV test, but it was closed.
The Bogard incident happened the same day:
Mr. BALL. About what date? Do you remember?
Mr. BOGARD. Ninth day of November, I think it was, to be exact.
Mr. BALL. 1963?
Mr. BOGARD. 1963.
Mr. BALL. What day of the week was that?
Mr. BOGARD. That was on a Saturday.
Mr. BALL. When was it? In the morning, or afternoon?
Mr. BOGARD. Afternoon.
Mr. BALL. About what time?
Mr. BOGARD. I think it was around 1:30 or 2 o'clock, as I was leaving town shortly after I gave the demonstration in the automobile and I was in a hurry.
This showroom was not far from Oswald's job at the Depository and Oswald could reach it by bus. I think this was Oswald, not a case of mistaken identity. Mr. BOGARD. Ninth day of November, I think it was, to be exact.
Mr. BALL. 1963?
Mr. BOGARD. 1963.
Mr. BALL. What day of the week was that?
Mr. BOGARD. That was on a Saturday.
Mr. BALL. When was it? In the morning, or afternoon?
Mr. BOGARD. Afternoon.
Mr. BALL. About what time?
Mr. BOGARD. I think it was around 1:30 or 2 o'clock, as I was leaving town shortly after I gave the demonstration in the automobile and I was in a hurry.
Two people - Officer Baker was accompanied by Roy Truly, who was the person who hired Oswald.
Baker's testimony:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
Truly's testimony:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
The Commission ran numerous tests with Officer Baker reenacting his motions and a Secret Service agent reenacting Oswald's, and concluded that Oswald had time to get down to the lunchroom. Since his weapon was recovered on the sixth floor, and there's no evidence of any strangers in the building, it's apparent from the evidence Oswald shot the President. You have to disregard all the physical evidence to reach any other conclusion - so that's exactly what conspiracy theorists do.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Thanks for the correction. The driving/car story never seemed important enough to dig into.
A few years back I looked into the Post Office claim and discovered there's a post office branch in easy, short walking distance from the TBSD. Factor in that in 1963, going to the post office was a common thing for average Americans, and not an ordeal like it can be today.
The shooting range remains an interesting side hustle. According to Gus Russo's book, Live by the Sword, Howard Price told Dallas newsman Hugh Aynesworth he saw Oswald at the Sportsdome Gun Range in Grand Prairie, TX. Thirteen miles from where Oswald lived. Price said he saw Oswald there on October 26, November 9 or 10, and on November 17, a Sunday. Price said he was there with other people. Also at the range, accord ing to the book, was a Garland Slack who was there on 11/17/63 who was in the stall next to Oswald. Slack claimed to have gotten into a shooting match with Oswald, and is the source for the claim of Oswald shooting at targets assigned to other people at the range. According to Slack, Oswald was firing rapid-fire, and "I think he centered them all".
For the record, Howard Price would only talk to the FBI for about 15 minutes because he didn't want to get involved.
Another witness, 13 year-old Sterling Wood talked to "the man with the Italian Carbine" at the range. The kid was a gun aficionado, and recognized the Carano. The kid also noted the man firing the rifle put the spent casings into his pocket, and he was with another man around the same height. Apparently the FBI agents who questioned to by scared the crap out of him. Sterling and his father Dr. Homer Wood claim to have driven Oswald home to Oak Cliff, and during the ride they talked about Minsk where the Woods had relatives. After the assassination Marina sent them letters hoping the Woods would forward them to Minks...or as that story goes...
The firing range story is one hell of a rabbit hole. All it tells me is Oswald was a solid shot, as claimed by all three witnesses. But we already know that.
mikegriffith1
Muse
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It's rather strange to see the JFK case lumped in with all other conspiracy theories, given that a select committee of the U.S. House formally concluded that two gunmen fired at JFK, that one of the gunmen fired from the front, that Jack Ruby lied about why he killed Oswald and how he entered the police basement, that someone was rearranging boxes in the sixth-floor window at a time when Oswald was known to have been downstairs and before any police had reached the window, that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City weeks before the assassination, that JFK was first hit when the sixth-floor gunman's view of the limo would have been obstructed by the oak tree, etc., etc.
When are lone-gunman theorists going to deal with the recent 3D laser analysis done by Knott Laboratory, a respected forensic engineering firm that specializes in digital reconstruction. The Knott Lab reconstruction proves that the single-bullet theory (SBT) is impossible. No SBT means that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets and that there was more than one gunman.
https://www.forensicmag.com/608244-Forensic-Animation-Firm-Tests-Single-Bullet-Theory-in-Reconstruction-of-JFK-Assassination/
https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
When are lone-gunman theorists going to deal with the recent 3D laser analysis done by Knott Laboratory, a respected forensic engineering firm that specializes in digital reconstruction. The Knott Lab reconstruction proves that the single-bullet theory (SBT) is impossible. No SBT means that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets and that there was more than one gunman.
https://www.forensicmag.com/608244-Forensic-Animation-Firm-Tests-Single-Bullet-Theory-in-Reconstruction-of-JFK-Assassination/
https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
Axxman300
Philosopher
Whelp, this statement is a lie.
The HSCA did not formally conclude there were two gunman, nor did they conclude - nor prove he was struck from the front. In fact, the HSCA didn't prove anything to contradict the Warren Commission's findings, and mostly doubled down on them.
Here's what the HSCA actually said:
They also throw this in:
The problem with this part is that in the decades since the hearings the acoustic evidence has been shown to be based on faulty source materials. And new acoustical tests support the lone shooter.
They follow with this statement:
If you spoke Government-ese you'd realize they're covering their asses by this statement in order to look like they hadn't wasted time, resources, and money on a wild goose chase, which did.
The JFK Assassination remains on the conspiracy theory board because it's still a nutjob effort.
We already did. Knott Lab did sloppy work. Those morons put Connally too far to the right. The jumpseat is about where JFK's left knee would be, and thus reached a false conclousion. Just as Jim Garrison did years ago.
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Allen773
Graduate Poster
JFK conspiracy theorists read history backwards and assume that the Cold War would have ended and there would have been global nuclear disarmament and “peace” in general. Vietnam, Watergate, and more high-profile assassinations including that of JFK’s brother along with MLK have all added fuel to the CT fire, as has the US government’s decades-long decline in trust across the political spectrum. Not to mention Oliver Stone’s role—Hollywood is powerful in shaping people’s views of history, along with decades of conspiracy theory authors and in more recent years, online message boards, YouTubers, podcasts, and so forth.
Consequently, the JFK assassination being a “Deep State” conspiracy is an article of faith to millions of Americans of multiple generations, to the point where many believe Oswald was completely innocent. That’s deeply troubling, since there is in fact no doubt that Oswald murdered both John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit, seriously wounded John Connally, came close to murdering Edwin Walker, attempted to shoot the cops in the theater with the same revolver with which he killed Tippit, oh and was also an abusive husband. Erasing Oswald’s guilt is just despicable on the part of conspiracy theorists.
Consequently, the JFK assassination being a “Deep State” conspiracy is an article of faith to millions of Americans of multiple generations, to the point where many believe Oswald was completely innocent. That’s deeply troubling, since there is in fact no doubt that Oswald murdered both John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit, seriously wounded John Connally, came close to murdering Edwin Walker, attempted to shoot the cops in the theater with the same revolver with which he killed Tippit, oh and was also an abusive husband. Erasing Oswald’s guilt is just despicable on the part of conspiracy theorists.
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Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
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They changed their original conclusion (that Oswald acted alone) at the last minute because of the supposed Dictabelt recording which a couple of analysts testified contained evidence of four shots. The recording is thought to have come from a police radio microphone that became stuck in the on position. It's worth noting that the conclusion was changed because a narrow majority voted to do so. But later analysis, by multiple independent sources, has shown that conversations between police officers discussing the shooting can be heard on the recording about a minute before the alleged gunshot acoustic evidence. It's also been determined that the radio broadcasting on the recording was most likely on a police vehicle that was waiting at the motorcade's destination.
The original faulty analysis probably wasn't meant to deceive. It was more likely a case of someone getting so excited about the prospect of finding stunning new evidence that they let it overwhelm their objectivity.
So the JFK conspiracy theory thread is right where it belongs.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Mike Griffith is doing his usual drive-by posting. Don't expect him to debate any of his proclamations.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
In November 1980, both the FBI and the NRC (National Research Council) reviewed the HSCA acoustical reports on the JFK assassination. They found inaccuracies in the HSCA reports alleging the presence of the second, 'grassy knoll' assassin. Their report stated that....
1. The HSCA did not to prove that sounds on the Dallas Police Department recording were exclusively from Dealey Plaza or were unique to Dealey Plaza.
2. The HSCA reviewed no conclusive eyewitness testimony that a DPD motorcycle microphone was stuck open in Dealey Plaza on Channel One and that the information from this particular microphone was being received and recorded at DPD headquarters.
The NRC report determined that '...an accurate analysis of the DPD channel recording was extremely difficult due to the inadequate and inaccurate echo analyses performed. HSCA analyses used a subjective selection of impulse peaks, leading to errors in statistical conclusions, and analysis methods that were untested at high levels of background noise. Finally, sound spectrograms and event timing showed that the alleged grassy knoll impulses were recorded on Channel One approximately 1 minute after the actual assassination'.
So, the HSCA's conclusions were wrong... its that simple!
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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Have you read that report from the guy who has analyzed the whole dictabelt recording and concluded it was from a cop on a 3-wheeler? In fact, there was "eyewitness testimony" (from the cop himself) that his mic was stuck open. It wasn't a motorcycle, and it was no where near the parade route.
The HSCA got this thrown at them at the last minute, didn't have time to do a proper investigation, and just took their word for it. In the end, they were about to affirm the conclusions of the WC but when they got this, they were like, hmm, it looks like there was a second shooter. **** all if we can explain it.
However, since the basis for their conclusion that there was a second shooter hasn't held up, there is no basis to continue with that conclusion.
"Nevermind"
bknight
Master Poster
Dictabelt analysis was new and not done accurately enough. I wasn't there at the hearings, but it was my conclusion that the committee was biased toward a conspiracy and "found" one in the dictabelt. The rest of their investigation as smartcooky has pointed out did not support a conspiracy. But the CTs won the day with the dictabelt, even though none of them knew and understood what the analysts were telling them, but the hope of finding a conspiracy was too compelling. That analysis as smartcooky has pointed out was later proved bad science analysis, not true, and [poof] no conspiracy.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Having read almost 2,000 documents from the National Archives it is clear to me that the HSCA was more interested in getting access to the CIA's JMWAVE files, and FBI's anti-Civil Rights operational files than they were looking into the facts behind either assassination (JFK, MLK Jr). Their teams were pulling CIA files dating back to the late 1940s that had nothing to do with LHO, JFK, or anything relevant to the assassination.
So it should be no surprise they found a way to stick it to the FBI and CIA with dictabelt thing. And it should be obvious as to why the CIA is even less inclined to cooperate with Congressional investigators from that point on.
bknight
Master Poster
I have only read/heard the news POV, so I can only accept your analysis.