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Ed Is Trump disqualified from the ballot by the 14th Amendment?

TellyKNeasuss said:
Now that the Supreme Court has accepted the appeal, what are the possible decisions:
1) Rule that Jan. 6 did not qualify as an insurrection.
2) Rule that Trump has not been proven to have been a participant in what happened at the Capitol.
3) Rule that the 14th amendment only prevents insurrectionists from taking office but not from running for office and that it would be a violation of a political party's constitutional rights to prevent them from running the candidate of their choice.
4) Rule that the parties rather than the govt. organize the primary elections and that it's up to the political parties whether they want to allow an ineligible person to compete.
5) Rule that the determination of the eligibility of candidates under the 14th amendment is the purview of the legislative branch and not the courts.
6) Rule that the 14th amendment does not apply to the presidency.
7) Rule that the hearings on the disqualification did not afford Trump a sufficient opportunity to present his case.
8) Rule that since the ballots have been printed and mailed out that it's too late to remove Trump from the ballot.
9) Uphold the Colorado decision.

What others have a missed?
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10) Rule that the question of whether a person is eligible to hold an office Under the United States can not be decided by a state court. It must be decided in a federal court.

I don't think that this is one of the grounds for overturning the Colorado decision in Trump's appeal but it seems like the safest way for the SC to rule (in favour of Trump). It means that the SC is just "kicking the can" and doesn't have to decide questions like whether Trump actually engaged in insurrection or whether the POTUS "holds an office".
 
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NPR has a video clip and a transcript of trump's remarks to the crowd at the White House on January 6th.
Democrats have pointed to one phrase in particular as they argue that Trump incited those present to march down Pennsylvania Avenue toward the Capitol. "We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore," he said.

His defense lawyers, however, point to a different passage, in which Trump said, "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard." They argue that his words were not a call for actual violence and lawlessness. NPR link
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On Dec 19, 2020 trump was urging his followers to come to DC on Jan 6th. trump tweeted, "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!"

Fight like hell, will be wild. Telling the crowd to "do it peacefully," was just trump's way of covering his butt. He knew what was going to happen and it was exactly what he wanted to have happen.
 
Protests in D.C. have a long and storied history of not being insurrections. I'm sure that everyone here agrees this is a tradition that should be upheld. And I'm sure everyone here who supported the BLM demonstrations acknowledges that a bit of vandalism and trespassing is to be expected and not especially criminalized in such demonstrations.

So "Jan 6 was a coup attempt" doesn't ring true for me. It was a demonstration. It was no more an insurrection than the Bonus Army was an insurrection.
 
theprestige said:
Protests in D.C. have a long and storied history of not being insurrections. I'm sure that everyone here agrees this is a tradition that should be upheld. And I'm sure everyone here who supported the BLM demonstrations acknowledges that a bit of vandalism and trespassing is to be expected and not especially criminalized in such demonstrations.

So "Jan 6 was a coup attempt" doesn't ring true for me. It was a demonstration. It was no more an insurrection than the Bonus Army was an insurrection.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::eye-poppi:boggled:
 
The 'protesters' didn't march to the Capitol, they forced their way into the Capitol. They turned over barricades, they fought police, they used pepper spray. They broke windows, they broke in doors. Ashli Babbitt -- who videoed herself on the march saying, "The storm is coming" -- was trying to climb through a shattered window to get deeper inside the Capitol when she was shot by police.

Peaceful or fighting like hell? They were trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election based on a complete lie that trump is still spouting. trump was watching on TV. His staff pleaded with him to try and cool things down by making a statement. He refused for several hours.
 
theprestige said:
"Organized"

Your should study some real insurrections and coups sometime. Try Portugal's revolt of the captains, for starters.
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YES! He ***** organized it. His little cabal invited paramilitary groups like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys.

It was an attempted coup. It wasn't a military coup. But it was an attempted coup nevertheless. Trump tried to do it while at the same time giving himself what he thought was plausible deniability if it failed. Roger Stone told him to invoke the insurrection act. Trump had every opportunity to call off his thugs. But instead gleefully watched the chaos on TV. He never lifted a finger until it petered out on him.

Even if it was just a protest, which it wasn't, the act of creating slates of fake electors and attempting to get Mike Pence to not count the legitimate slates of electors is an attempted coup.
 
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theprestige said:
Protests in D.C. have a long and storied history of not being insurrections. I'm sure that everyone here agrees this is a tradition that should be upheld. And I'm sure everyone here who supported the BLM demonstrations acknowledges that a bit of vandalism and trespassing is to be expected and not especially criminalized in such demonstrations.

So "Jan 6 was a coup attempt" doesn't ring true for me. It was a demonstration. It was no more an insurrection than the Bonus Army was an insurrection.
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theprestige is reminding us of the BLM demonstrations that used violence to invade the US Capitol for the purpose of preventing the US House of Representatives from certifying a presidential election, invading not only the House chamber but also the offices of several House leaders, while the demonstrators chanted their intention to hang the Vice President as a gallows stood outside.

It's a good thing he's reminding us of that, because I myself don't remember those BLM demonstrations at all.

The Bonus army was real, however. In 1932, 40+ thousand protesters camped out in "Hooverville" for over a month, with logistics worked out in concert with the DC police. On 28 July, the remaining protesters were removed by force, including police and elements of the US military including cavalry, infantry, and tanks. The protesters put up very little resistance. Two of the protesters were shot and killed by a police officer. A 12-year-old boy died after being tear-gassed. General Douglas MacArthur, in command of the military, said the military action was responding to an attempt to overthrow the US government.

On 6 January 2021, only four of the 2000+ protesters who entered the Capitol died from injuries suffered inside the building; a police office died the next day, and 170+ police officers were injured.

The 6 January 2021 insurrection was every bit as much an insurrection as the 28 July 1932 incident that MacArthur described as an attempt to overthrow the US government, and the 6 January 2021 insurrectionists were more violent than the Bonus Army.
 
theprestige said:
Protests in D.C. have a long and storied history of not being insurrections. I'm sure that everyone here agrees this is a tradition that should be upheld. And I'm sure everyone here who supported the BLM demonstrations acknowledges that a bit of vandalism and trespassing is to be expected and not especially criminalized in such demonstrations.

So "Jan 6 was a coup attempt" doesn't ring true for me. It was a demonstration. It was no more an insurrection than the Bonus Army was an insurrection.
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An "insurrection" requires an intention to overthrow or take control of a government by extra-legal means. It is not defined by the level of violence.
 
"Yes, I tried to murder him, but you thwarted me by getting my target away from where I was trying to hunt him down before I could get there, so that means I didn't really try to hunt him down & murder him."
 
TellyKNeasuss said:
An "insurrection" requires an intention to overthrow or take control of a government by extra-legal means. It is not defined by the level of violence.
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Exactly!

Coups do not have to be violent at all. It's not that Trump organized a protest. It's that he used extra-legal means to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. Therefore, attempting to overthrow the legitimate incoming government.
 
psionl0 said:
10) Rule that the question of whether a person is eligible to hold an office Under the United States can not be decided by a state court. It must be decided in a federal court..
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And, of course,
11) Planet X is an anarcho-syndicalist commune with no need for an election.
 
theprestige said:
Protests in D.C. have a long and storied history of not being insurrections. I'm sure that everyone here agrees this is a tradition that should be upheld. And I'm sure everyone here who supported the BLM demonstrations acknowledges that a bit of vandalism and trespassing is to be expected and not especially criminalized in such demonstrations.

So "Jan 6 was a coup attempt" doesn't ring true for me. It was a demonstration. It was no more an insurrection than the Bonus Army was an insurrection.
Click to expand...

Oh it wouldn't be like someone was bragging about they were going to do the Insurrection month in Advance, It wasn't like Trump advertised it incited it for weeks, it wasn't like Trump Tried to destroy the United States Constitution for political gain.
Clearly it was Trump's Idiot Insurrection of Trump's Idiots.
 
newyorkguy said:
NPR has a video clip and a transcript of trump's remarks to the crowd at the White House on January 6th.


On Dec 19, 2020 trump was urging his followers to come to DC on Jan 6th. trump tweeted, "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!"

Fight like hell, will be wild. Telling the crowd to "do it peacefully," was just trump's way of covering his butt. He knew what was going to happen and it was exactly what he wanted to have happen.
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As has been poked at elsewhere, there's also the part where organizers knew in advance that Trump would just happen to send the intentionally dangerous crowd to the Capitol building in direct violation to what they had been permitted to do and in direct opposition to what they were officially telling the organizations dealing with security.

Trump deserves absolutely no benefit of the doubt. He's proven himself utterly unworthy of it both in general and in this specific instance.


Crazy Chainsaw said:
Oh it wouldn't be like someone was bragging about they were going to do the Insurrection month in Advance, It wasn't like Trump advertised it incited it for weeks, it wasn't like Trump Tried to destroy the United States Constitution for political gain.
Clearly it was Trump's Idiot Insurrection of Trump's Idiots.
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And defended by useful idiots. Just like usual. It's been quite the pattern that's been especially apparent since the attempts to pass off "Russia, if you're listening..." as a joke. How willfully blind did one have to be to claim that that statement was a joke? It was pretty mind-boggling at the time, but it got worse when people tried to use that excuse even after it was found that he was repeatedly directing his campaign staff to get those pointedly illegal things from Russia for his use. This? All this gaslighting that certain parties are trying to engage in is little different.
 
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