Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (part 3)

[Planigale]

On the contrary, there is nothing "simple," or even legal in the US about what you are suggesting.




Here's what is simple, if you are caught with illegal possession of a firearm, you will be arrested, and the gun you have on you taken from you. Additionally, if you are convicted of a felony, you cannot legally own a gun in the U.S. The percentage of felons that give a **** about that law is probably, however, pretty low. And felons know where to get guns illegally. Thus taking guns away from felons in the US has very little effect on the prevalence of guns, especially among the people we least want to have them.

Having covered the felony case, let's consider misdemeanors. What if you are arrested for a non-violent crime and you are legally in possession of gun? Are you suggesting that that gun should be confiscated? That would almost certainly be illegal in the US. For better or worse, we have a Second Amendment that our current Supreme Court has interpreted very permissively.




Except that under US law, the police can't confiscate a gun you legally own (unless, I presume, you have just used it in the commission of a crime), and even if they could and did, you probably have more guns at home anyway; and even if you don't, you could easily obtain another one illegally.



So, no, no exception. You "simply" don't understand the situation here.

I don't really understand US law, so forgive me if I misunderstand.

1) I assume that this means state law not US federal law?

2) I thought police in at least some states could seize anything thought to be associated with a crime?

Civil forfeiture allows police to seize — and then keep or sell — any property they allege is involved in a crime. Owners need not ever be arrested or convicted of a crime for their cash, cars, or even real estate to be taken away permanently by the government.

Could not civil forfeiture be used to seize guns in this situation? I realise this doesn't stop them just buying another gun.

 

[Norman Alexander]

If they are illegal then they can be seized and destroyed. Should be able to remove lots of them if they are easy to come by.

That actually makes no sense whatsoever. You are utterly clueless. Consider illegal drugs. By your own argument, they should be easily "seized," "destroyed," and "removed." If I didn't despise that annoying laughing tiger gif so much, I wold post it right here.

*SIGH*

Let's run through this for you.

1. Bad guy does bad things with a gun and gets caught and convicted.
2. Confiscate every gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
3. Bad guy gets out of the slammer and gets another pile of guns, because "they are easy to come by".
4. Check up on bad guy; confiscate every NEW gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
5. Was bad guy not supposed to have guns? Into the slammer again!
6. Go to step 3.

So in reality, this bad guy is helping round up and destroy a bunch of guns.

Now repeat with every bad guy.

 

[Nessie]

Licensing differs by state. In some states, there is no licensing requirement to own a gun. I don't know what you mean by circumventing license requirements. If you mean that a criminal can buy an illegals gun, then yeah. But it that is independent of licensing requirements.

I mean, it is easy for anyone to buy a gun. There are probably lots of people with no criminal convictions, who have a gun tucked away in their home somewhere.

 

[Nessie]

*SIGH*

Let's run through this for you.

1. Bad guy does bad things with a gun and gets caught and convicted.
2. Confiscate every gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
3. Bad guy gets out of the slammer and gets another pile of guns, because "they are easy to come by".
4. Check up on bad guy; confiscate every NEW gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
5. Was bad guy not supposed to have guns? Into the slammer again!
6. Go to step 3.

So in reality, this bad guy is helping round up and destroy a bunch of guns.

Now repeat with every bad guy.

As explained, that has not worked with drugs. It will not work with guns, because of the never ending supply and demand.

 

[BrettM]

*SIGH*

Let's run through this for you.

1. Bad guy does bad things with a gun and gets caught and convicted.
2. Confiscate every gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
3. Bad guy gets out of the slammer and gets another pile of guns, because "they are easy to come by".
4. Check up on bad guy; confiscate every NEW gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
5. Was bad guy not supposed to have guns? Into the slammer again!
6. Go to step 3.

So in reality, this bad guy is helping round up and destroy a bunch of guns.

Now repeat with every bad guy.

That's not what will happen. THIS is what will happen.

1. Bad guy has 10 guns.
2. Bad guy hides 9 guns.
3. Bad guy commits crime with one gun. Trying to commit a crime with 10 guns in counter-productive. They get in the way and slow you down while committing a crime.
4. Bad guy is arrested. Gun is destroyed. The other 9 guns are safe, because they cannot be found.

But wait, there's more!

5. Bad guy goes to prison for 10 years instead of 2 years.
6. After 10 years, bad guy gets out of prison, collects one of his remaining guns, commits another crime, and gets arrested again, and his gun confiscated.
7. So instead of waiting 2 years to harvest another gun, the authorities have to wait 10 years! Not much help in rounding up and destroying a bunch of guns, is it?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Strange that it's only in the USA that it's impossible to control access to firearms and reduce their numbers.

 

[jt512]

*SIGH*

Let's run through this for you.

1. Bad guy does bad things with a gun and gets caught and convicted.
2. Confiscate every gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
3. Bad guy gets out of the slammer and gets another pile of guns, because "they are easy to come by".
4. Check up on bad guy; confiscate every NEW gun he has, owns or has access to, and destroy them.
5. Was bad guy not supposed to have guns? Into the slammer again!
6. Go to step 3.

So in reality, this bad guy is helping round up and destroy a bunch of guns.

Now repeat with every bad guy.

It's so...wait for it...simple!

Felons who are caught with guns go to prison for a very long time, so your program doesn't help. The problem is that for every felon you lock up for 25 years to life, another one (if not more than one) is created.

 

[Darat]

On the contrary, there is nothing "simple," or even legal in the US about what you are suggesting.
...snip...

The statement of mine that you objected to was that when arrested the police can take your gun from you. It is absolutely not the case that the police in the USA when arresting you can't take your gun and other property from you. It is SOP to search and ensure the arrested person hasn't anything potentially dangerous on them never mind a gun. You are not going to be in custody in a police cell with your gun. The police are already trained to do this.

 

[Matthew Best]

You are not going to be in custody in a police cell with your gun. The police are already trained to do this.

The training doesn't always work.

 

[Norman Alexander]

That's not what will happen. THIS is what will happen.

1. Bad guy has 10 guns.
2. Bad guy hides 9 guns.
3. Bad guy commits crime with one gun. Trying to commit a crime with 10 guns in counter-productive. They get in the way and slow you down while committing a crime.
4. Bad guy is arrested. Gun is destroyed. The other 9 guns are safe, because they cannot be found.

But wait, there's more!

5. Bad guy goes to prison for 10 years instead of 2 years.
6. After 10 years, bad guy gets out of prison, collects one of his remaining guns, commits another crime, and gets arrested again, and his gun confiscated.
7. So instead of waiting 2 years to harvest another gun, the authorities have to wait 10 years! Not much help in rounding up and destroying a bunch of guns, is it?

Read my step 2 again. It means the hidden guns will probably be found too. And his mate's guns too. Plus they will have 10 years to rust. And at least one gun will go even so.

Predicated on the US law actually getting muscles and teeth. But it won't because there is no balls to do so.

 

[BrettM]

Read my step 2 again. It means the hidden guns will probably be found too. And his mate's guns too. Plus they will have 10 years to rust. And at least one gun will go even so.

Predicated on the US law actually getting muscles and teeth. But it won't because there is no balls to do so.

That is a very naive assumption. Do you believe the baddies will hide their spare guns at home under their bed, or inside a toilet cistern, or next to the T.V. dinners in the refrigerator? These guns will be far away from places they normally frequent!

How will the guns be found? Specially trained sniffer dogs? Gun diviners armed with dousing sticks? Metal detectors? Portable X-ray machines like you have at airports?

Do you think the police departments will spend their limited budget on something which has a very low chance of succeeding? They will get more bang for their buck doing other things!

 

[Hercules56]

State of New York has officially set a definition for mass shooting. Shooting incident where 4+ people are killed.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-signs-legislation-strengthen-public-safety

It's important that politicians start legislating clarity to this issue.

 

[Thermal]

That is a very naive assumption. Do you believe the baddies will hide their spare guns at home under their bed, or inside a toilet cistern, or next to the potted meat in the refrigerator? These guns will be far away from places they normally frequent!

How will the guns be found? Specially trained sniffer dogs? Gun diviners armed with dousing sticks? Metal detectors?

Do you think the police departments will spend their limited budget on on something which has a very low chance of succeeding? They will get more bang for their buck doing other things!

Based on your example, the guns would be hidden while the baddie was in prison across about a quarter century, so effectively off the street. Another couple convictions and those guns are freaking antiques, and likely this baddie will be dead, with the rusting antique gun horde still stored off the streets.

 

[Bogative]

It's been four months since August Golden was murdered during an anti-LGBT queerphobic hate-crime mass-shooting in Minneapolis.

"Two young men came in, started hitting on people that were not open to being hit on. And after being reprimanded and told to like step down, they grew increasingly violent, and did what they did," Dively said.

Still no publicly available description of the shooters other than "young and male."

 

[Hercules56]

State of New York has officially set a definition for mass shooting. Shooting incident where 4+ people are killed.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-signs-legislation-strengthen-public-safety

It's important that politicians start legislating clarity to this issue.

May not be a perfect definition, leaves out events where lots of people shot but nobody dies, but its better than nothing.

Definitely better than the all-encompassing RACIST definition that makes it look like black & brown people are responsible for most mass-shootings, which we know is a racist lie.

 

[BrettM]

Based on your example, the guns would be hidden while the baddie was in prison across about a quarter century, so effectively off the street. Another couple convictions and those guns are freaking antiques, and likely this baddie will be dead, with the rusting antique gun horde still stored off the streets.

Wasn't there a big hoo-haa on this very thread about the excessive numbers of people incarcerated in USA prisons? If you lock up prisoners for extended periods (quarter of a century) for gun-related crimes, you may need two or three times as many prisons, because you will have two or three times as many prisoners.

 

[Thermal]

Wasn't there a big hoo-haa on this very thread about the excessive numbers of people incarcerated in USA prisons? If you lock up prisoners for extended periods (quarter of a century) for gun-related crimes, you may need two or three times as many prisons, because you will have two or three times as many prisoners.

Not sure I follow you? Baddies committing crimes with guns are exactly who we want in prison. They are violent and a serious threat to other people. Yes, have violent criminals in jail for a decade at a throw (a couple separate sentences with the additional charges to get up to the quarter century mark, per your example).

I hold my fair State up a lot as an example of how it actually works in practice. No public carry at all. Any crime involving a gun was a guaranteed pile of additional felonies, from illegal ownership to illegal carry before you even get to the specific crimes committed with it. Despite being the most densely populated US State, with a ton of impoverished cities outside of NYC and Philadelphia, we have the fourth from the bottom lowest gun crime rate. It works, with private ownership of guns largely unrestricted by other first world standards.

 

[BrettM]

Not sure I follow you? Baddies committing crimes with guns are exactly who we want in prison. They are violent and a serious threat to other people. Yes, have violent criminals in jail for a decade at a throw (a couple separate sentences with the additional charges to get up to the quarter century mark, per your example).

I hold my fair State up a lot as an example of how it actually works in practice. No public carry at all. Any crime involving a gun was a guaranteed pile of additional felonies, from illegal ownership to illegal carry before you even get to the specific crimes committed with it. Despite being the most densely populated US State, with a ton of impoverished cities outside of NYC and Philadelphia, we have the fourth from the bottom lowest gun crime rate. It works, with private ownership of guns largely unrestricted by other first world standards.

I applaud your fair state for their proactive approach to gun control. It would be remarkable if the incarceration rate for Pennsylvanian prisons was also fourth from the bottom. Instead it is 29th from the bottom (Wikipedia - 2018 figures).

I am OK with that. You can't have everything. I would much rather see a high incarceration rate in exchange for a lower incidence of gun violence.

 

[Thermal]

I applaud your fair state for their proactive approach to gun control. It would be remarkable if the incarceration rate for Pennsylvanian prisons was also fourth from the bottom. Instead it is 29th from the bottom (Wikipedia - 2018 figures).

I am OK with that. You can't have everything. I would much rather see a high incarceration rate in exchange for a lower incidence of gun violence.

I'm Jersey. Pennsylvania has very lax gun laws and much higher incarceration rate.

 

[BrettM]

I'm Jersey. Pennsylvania has very lax gun laws and much higher incarceration rate.

A thousand pardons I beg of you!

You are right. Your state has both low levels of gun-related crime as well as low incarceration levels. Very impressive! The other US states should turn to you for lessons on how it is done.