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Can a Skeptic Believe in God? Responses to Panel Discussion

Reason is not evidence. Evidence is evidence. And evidence is gathered through direct observation. Once you have evidence, you can apply reason to it to form a conclusion. But you can't call reason "evidence".


There are rare exceptions: Newton rejected the prevailing model of gravity (heavier objects fall faster) before doing his experiment because it led to contradictions.

For example, he thought, if you tied a small stone to a string, and tied a large stone to the other end of the string, what would happen? Would the heavy rock pull down the lighter rock? Would the two rocks tied together fall even faster than the heavy rock alone? It didn't make sense.

There is a type of logical tool called "truth through contradiction" where you can reject an hypothesis if it leads to contradictions. No experiment necessary.

But generally, yes, theories require massive amounts of observations to build up over time.
 
I happen to entertain a Deistic belief which, from all I've heard and read (not just here and at TAM4, but all the years I've been on the forum) doesn't seem to differ very much from Hal's. I do not claim to speak for Hal, nor do I claim that my statements explain his position exactly; however, being that I believe in nearly the same things, I might be able to lend some insight.

First, I think JamesDillon's characterization is flawed at the beginning. Like myself, I believe Hal was not an atheist/agnostic at the beginning; rather, he may have "accepted" the existence of a god (perhaps even a personal one) in a very general way - for example, he may not have gone to church often or at all (I didn't), he may not have spent time pondering religious matters (I didn't), and he may have made decisions based on a moral code which perhaps was taught to him via religion, but not essentially connected (i.e., Hal did "the Right Thing" because it was the Right Thing, not because he feared going to hell). But perhaps he considered it a general given that God existed. This is why he describes praying during his time of extreme calamity. It's not that the calamity caused him to suddenly believe in a god, it's that he reacted with prayer because that's "what you're supposed to do when you're in trouble", according to the background religious belief set. He mentioned very specifically that he never really thought it would work.

I'm not sure I could guess as to the exact process of Hal's transforming from this quasi-Christianity to the Deism he now entertains. The way it happened with me, it simply occurred to me, or started occurring to me, that there was something wrong with the way things were versus the idea of God I'd been believing. As these essential "truths" I had grown to believe in began to look not as solid, I turned to an alternative way of viewing reality which had been proven, in my eyes, to work all the time - science. Still, I had grown to fancy the idea of a God, and for certain emotional reasons which I won't go into, I was unwilling to abandon that idea. So, I proceeded with the philisophical assumption that a god in some form or other existed.

When I applied the Scientific Method to God, I discovered that although God wouldn't disappear completely, nor would he ultimately be shown to exist for certain, I could get a pretty good idea of what God was not. For example, he does not seem to interfere in the day-to-day operation of the Universe. We can tell this because we can find nothing within it that can't be explained naturally. We can tell that, therefore, God doesn't favor or speak to specific people; he doesn't perform magic tricks to get people to believe in him, and so on. If we were to apply reason to God (again, assuming he exists), we would determine that he (He?) should not delight in the torture of his creation, that he would not want an animal with such a capacity for thought and reason to voluntarily abandon those faculties simply to adore him, that he would not care whether an individual "believes" in him or not. Certainly, any reasonable "God" would not rely on such faulty mediums as texts and word of mouth to reveal himself.

And so on it went. I started with the Christian concept of God and used science and reason to peel back the various layers until I arrived at the core - essentially, a philisophical construct which created the Universe and then left it alone, to hang like a painting, for instance, in his chamber to admire. I don't know whether "God" really is a "he" or she, or even if this god is sentient. For all intents and purposes, my vague, nebulous notion of a god results in a physical universe which differs in no way with a universe in which there is no god. That's why I get along with atheists so well.

So why do I accept this god? Why not just leave him off and have done with it? Because, quite simply, I have "scienced" God into a concept that no longer has any implications in the physical world, and therefore into a purely philisophical concept (as opposed to theistic concepts, which rely on an interfering god which has or should have scientific antecedents). In philisophy, the rules of naturalism no longer apply. Sure, you can insist upon using some sort of logical positivistic viewpoint - but my emotional desire for the existence of a god, in this wonderful land of philosophy, is an equally valid argument. If that emotional desire were not there, I would probably be an atheist. Perhaps, if or when that emotional desire disappears, I will be an atheist. Perhaps, so will Hal. And yes, I know it's difficult to understand how one could sustain an emotional need for something that is pretty similar to nothing at all. But I'm not very articulate.

So, I don't know if there's an afterlife, or if God has emotions or is even intelligent. It would be nice there was an afterlife, for instance, but I can't say for sure without feeling uncomfortable. And these are only my own opinions, of course - I don't typically explain the deist position to people unless they ask; indeed, the only reason I'm even mentioning it here is because I think it will help people understand. I hope it will, anyway. Yes, deists are very difficult to argue with about religion, because the generic deist concept of "God" is so nebulous, and you're all used to debating the Pat Robertsons of the world. Sorry to disappoint...

Meanwhile, of course a skeptic doesn't have to be an atheist. I tend to agree with those who say skepticism is a method, not a category. It's as if some feel that, to enter the "club", one must adopt a creed which simultaneously renounces a certain set of beliefs. This idea is bad for a few reasons - primarily because it doesn't allow for a pathway to "Ultimate Skepticism". It doesn't suffer those who may need to take baby-steps, slowly giving up this belief or that belief as they encounter the need to examine each. And it doesn't allow for the fact that anybody - me, Hal, kittynh, and the various other "believers" - may become atheists at any moment, but just haven't gotten there yet. The same may be true of anyone, of course, but how far along have we gotten? We join the fight and wade into the very center of the battle against UFOlogy, homeopathy, psychic frauds, and religious and scientific charlatanry, only to come home at the end of the day while the Hornbecks we've been fighting with turn on us and say "You hypocrite! You fraud!" And we still press on. It’s our fight too; it would be a shame to leave us out of it over some semantic minutae.
 
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The whole question gets weird because "god" is an abstract term...as is "believe" as is "skeptical thinking". How is one defining god? And does this god fit a testable belief? Does belief entail the kind of certainty that most of us have about gravity?--If I jump off of a roof; I believe with utter certainty I will fall down. Or can beliefs be sort of noncommittal opinions like "carbs are bad for you" or "I believe people are good at heart? There are so many vagaries. Is the belief in God a comforting notion--does it alter the way one spends ones time and money and change that which is important? Love is an emotion and can be measured in the brain to some extent. There doesn't seem to be any way to measure "God"or degree of belief. Is skepticism a tool or a method? Does critical thinking about god come under the critical thinking that a movie reviewer might do--or is it more about fact based deductions like mathematics? The question as to whether skeptics can believe in god or not seems unanswerable without definitions as to what exactly we are talking about when we use these terms. I'm sure most of those who call themselves skeptics, also call themselves atheist. I, myself, do. That being said, I don't really see how Hal's god makes his life any different then my godless life. Neither of us pray or expect an afterlife. I'm not sure what Hal's god is or what it does other than to make him feel better about the world. It seems more like an ideal or feeling or awe inspiring artwork...then the god I was raised to believe in--god lite, if you will. (Nothing like the heavy duty Catholic god that haunted my childhood.)

I don't like the idea of god, because I think it encourages the belief of god's opposite--"evil". And if someone or something is labled evil, then it becomes "good" to eradicate that evil. I think this is the thinking that gets people supporting wars which cause immense amounts of suffering to so many--I mean it's easy to ignore suffering if you know it's for the "higher good" of eradicating "evil", right? Wars cause concrete suffering by using abstract ideals to endorse poorly defined goals from what I can tell. And a belief as to what god wants and what evil is seems to be a theme behind most.

Maybe that is why most skeptics find the idea of "god" unsettling for the most part. Hal's god is harmless. Other peoples gods want to kill those who don't believe as they do. (I think we atheists are slated to go to every religion's hell--ha!)
 
Hi. I'd like to talk about the idea of skeptical christians.

I'm reading "A new Christianity for a New World" by John Shelby Spong. Spong says in the first line of chapter 1, "I am a Christian." He then goes on to say, "Yet I do not define God as a supernatural being. I do not believe in a diety who can help a nation win a war, intervene to cure a loved one's sickness, allow a particular athletic team to defeat its opponent, or affect the weater for anyone's benefit."

I would love to have a little book club to discuss this book, but I don't know anyone who lives near me who'd be particularly interested in reading this. Would anyone here be interested in doing so? I'm sure it's available at most public libraries.

Donna
 
Everything changed the minute you typed "okay now there is". Before there was evidence of evolution -- before someone observed how much dinosaur pelvises looked like bird pelvises, for instance -- evolution was indeed an unfounded conclusion. But as soon as there was that kind of directly-observed evidence, evolution became a serious hypothesis. Then evolution went on to predict what we might see if we experimented, and when those predictions came true, evolution became a full-fledged scientific theory. And that's as good as science gets.

Not flaming, but yes, your misunderstanding of my argument is indeed absurd. Good thing I didn't say it!

observing dinosaur pelvisis is no more or less evidence for evolution than craters on the light side of the moon are evidence for craters on the dark side...you were the one insisting on direct observation--had anyone seen a species evolve? that is what you were saying - that no one had actually seen a crater on the dark side...so no one had seen evolution--just circumstantial evidence that it must have happened....and by my saying ":okay, now there is" I was referring to the directly observed changes in species that have been documented as opposed to all the circumstantial evidence that existed before--so you seem to be changing your own definitions where it suits you...
 
observing dinosaur pelvisis is no more or less evidence for evolution than craters on the light side of the moon are evidence for craters on the dark side...
That's true. Observing dinosaur pelvises is not evidence for evolution. But you left out a step from what I said. I urge you to go back and read it more carefully.

you were the one insisting on direct observation--had anyone seen a species evolve?
Do we have to see a crater being formed on the moon to have direct observational evidence that there are craters on the moon? Of course not. Your implication that we need to see evolution happen to have evidence for evolution is equally absurd.

But we do need to see craters on the far side of the moon to know that they are there. Until we do, we don't have evidence; we have a belief based on reason.

you seem to be changing your own definitions where it suits you...
Rather you have been misreading what I have said, and I therefore see no further value in discussing it with you.
 
Beleth,

You seem to be under the impression that there is some magic, irrebuttable quality to conclusions drawn from "direct" (whatever that means; your definition of it seems to shift as is convenient to your argument) observation as opposed to circumstantial or indirect evidence (yes, evidence). Has it occurred to you that seeing something with one's own eyes is simply another form of evidence that could still very well be fallible?

Is it your position that, because no one has ever "seen" a subatomic particle, we have no "evidence" of their existence?

Or, to use another example: You come home one day to find your window broken, and a baseball (not your own) lying on the floor near the windowsill amidst several pieces of shattered glass. Is there any "evidence" that the baseball broke your window?
 
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Hi. I'd like to talk about the idea of skeptical christians.

I'm reading "A new Christianity for a New World" by John Shelby Spong. Spong says in the first line of chapter 1, "I am a Christian." He then goes on to say, "Yet I do not define God as a supernatural being. I do not believe in a diety who can help a nation win a war, intervene to cure a loved one's sickness, allow a particular athletic team to defeat its opponent, or affect the weater for anyone's benefit."

I would love to have a little book club to discuss this book, but I don't know anyone who lives near me who'd be particularly interested in reading this. Would anyone here be interested in doing so? I'm sure it's available at most public libraries.

Donna


I'd be interested, but it just goes on the end of a rather lengthy list of books I'm intending to read But I see if my library has it. :)
 
Beleth,

You seem to be under the impression that there is some magic, irrebuttable quality to conclusions drawn from "direct" (whatever that means; your definition of it seems to shift as is convenient to your argument)
All right, enough of this. I restate my definition in different words to make the understanding of my position clearer. What shifts is not my definition; it is your comprehension. Eventually we might just come to understand each other. Anyway, no, there is nothing irrebuttable about conclusions. But conclusions are not evidence.

observation as opposed to circumstantial or indirect evidence (yes, evidence). Has it occurred to you that seeing something with one's own eyes is simply another form of evidence that could still very well be fallible?
You're still not getting it. Evidence is not fallible; it is interpretations of the evidence as a result of faulty reasoning that is/are fallible.

Is it your position that, because no one has ever "seen" a subatomic particle, we have no "evidence" of their existence?
We have made direct observations of the world around us and have concluded, through reason, that subatomic particles exist. Those direct observations are evidence.

Or, to use another example: You come home one day to find your window broken, and a baseball (not your own) lying on the floor near the windowsill amidst several pieces of shattered glass. Is there any "evidence" that the baseball broke your window?
You have directly observed the baseball. You have directly observed the broken glass. Those are both pieces of evidence. You then apply reason to conclude that the baseball broke the window.

Here's a counterexample. You come home one day to find your window broken, but there is nothing immediately obvious lying on the floor amidst the broken glass. Is this evidence that a baseball broke the window?


Here's a slightly different take on the far-side-of-the-moon example:
Is the fact that there is observable life on Earth, evidence that there is life on Venus?
 
I would like to post this as evidence that there are some real benefits to viewing people who still believe as allies, not enemies:

EVOLUTION SUNDAY!

Hundreds of Christian churches all over the country are taking part in Evolution Sunday, February 12, 2006. Michael Zimmerman, the initiator of the project, writes, "For far too long, strident voices, in the name of Christianity, have been claiming that people must choose between religion and modern science. More than 10,000 Christian clergy have already signed The Clergy Letter demonstrating that this is a false dichotomy. Now, on the 197th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin, many of these leaders will bring this message to their congregations through sermons and/or discussion groups. Together, participating religious leaders will be making the statement that religion and science are not adversaries. And, together, they will be elevating the quality of the national debate on this topic." At last count, over 400 congregations in 49 states were scheduled to hold Evolution Sunday events; they are listed at the Clergy Letter Project website.

For the Evolution Sunday project, visit:
http://www.uwosh.edu/colleges/cols/rel_evol_sun.htm

For the Clergy Letter project, visit:
http://www.uwosh.edu/colleges/cols/religion_science_collaboration.htm
 
I would like to post this as evidence that there are some real benefits to viewing people who still believe as allies, not enemies:

Thanks Bug_Girl!
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I'm starting to think perhaps we should have a whole new thread as to the benefits of having people from a wide variety of backgrounds supporting/in an organisation such as JREF, if it's starting to become an issue with people.
 
In the words of Penn & Teller: "Everybody got a gris-gris."

This includes the atheists and skeptics among us - we all have some irrational belief that we just don't want to let go of, simply because it makes us feel better.

Hal Bidlack's gris-gris is apparently his deism. My gris-gris is very damned silly and I admit it, but I hold onto it because it comforts me. For the record, I'm an atheist and my gris-gris has nothing to do with religion, but it is a gris-gris nonetheless.

I think if we all dig deep, we'd find our own gris-gris. I think we should welcome folks like Hal Bidlack to the skeptical table, just as Randi has done with Martin Gardner (another noted skeptic & deist) - they have far, far more to offer to the critical thinking, freethought movement than many might think.

Cheers - Mattus
 
Does anybody have Randi, or any other panel members', exact words of their conclusion (if they did indeed conclude) that a skeptic cannot believe in god(s)?
 
I believe that Randi was the only one to state a firm conclusion (though Hal Bidlack's was obviously an implied "yes"), and as I recall he was asked by the moderator at the end whether a skeptic can believe in God, and his response was simply, "No."
 
Anyone want to list the names of people who believe in god(s) of any kind, but is also active, in the skeptical movement?

Here's some that come to my mind right away:

Martin Gardner
Hal Bidlack
Anthony Flew
Shmuley Boteach
 
Another possibility.......

Cosmologists have no reliable model for the pre-big-bang universe. I have heard it postulated that such a "universe" may have come about from natural forces and laws far different from those currently known to humankind. Then, too, our universe may be only one of an infinite number of other universes, each varying in infinite ways from one another (i.e., following different laws of nature).

What I am suggesting here is that our brains may not yet be advanced enough on the evolutionary scale to extricate the laws of our own universe, let alone even one of the possibly infinite number of alternate universes. What's more, we have no "evidence" to support the existence of even one other universe. Therefore, we should simply state:

"There are no other universes."

We can also state:

"There are no other natural forces or laws of science beyond those that constitute our universe."

We can posit a whole series of self-limiting, absolute statements like the two above.

Could it not simply be that at this stage in our biological evolution and at this juncture in our scientific history (as sentient entities having a history of perhaps 10,000 years - a miniscule time frame when compared to the age of say - the shark) we cannot yet even conceive of the powers and majesty that may exist just beyond our ken (or far beyond our ken)?

In such case any absolute pronouncements as to wholly unknown trusts (and possibly unknowable - for now - truths) seem to be anathema to the letter and spirit of critical thinking and skepticism.

The "Easter bunny" or "fairies, goblins, ghosts, Santa Klaus," et als. are well within our plain of comprehension. The claims attributable to these entities are challengeable within the known laws of science. The existence or non-existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, an entity unknowable by definition and beyond the present comprehensive ability of human beings, cannot be presently tested by science.

So, does that mean that we give up? Does that mean that we conclude that the existence or non-existence of god is "irrelevant!" That's a cop out.

Imagine for a moment a normal pre-historic cave dweller looking up at the night sky and pondering, "I wonder what those little twinkling things are? Could they be fires on mountaintops too far away for me to make out in the daytime?" Suppose his good friend, Oog, is a genius (compared to Oog), and he suggests, "These are entirely new suns, just like our Sun, only much further away."

Of course, Oog would be partially correct (omitting galaxies, nebulae, etc.), yet Oog could not even come remotely close to comprehending the full spectrum of light (gamma rays, x-rays, etc.), nor could he imagine cosmic rays, quasars, pulsars, subatomic particles of any kind, etc. He could not imagine the entire microbiological world so much of which inhabited his body and influenced his life.

If Oog was a skeptic, he might state: "There is no evidence of life smaller than the tiniest insects we can see with our naked eye; therefore, there can be no such smaller living things!"

Oog could just as readily say, "there is no God!"

My definition of skepticism disallows the stating of ANY absolute position NOT based upon ANY evidence. The nonexistence of god is a conclusion - in its broadest sense - lacking ANY evidence. The issue is not, however, irrelevant. Those ideas not yet provable, not yet even testable using our relatively nascent technologies, are far from irrelevant. To state that they are is to set unnecessary and arbitrary limits. A better way to approach the "god" vs. "no-god" issue is to conclude that we do not yet possess the nature or the science to define and adequately pursue the answer. We may, however, make the breakthrough tomorrow that will lead us to the answer. Perhaps one of those SETI teams will discover Carl Sagan's ENCYCLOPEDIA GALACTICA in which (on page twenty-two to the six-hundredth power) we may be able to read the answer to the "god" vs. "no-god" question!

I say, keep on wondering. Keep on imagining. Don't set limits. Don't exclude or seek to exclude the notion of "god" from the plethora of interesting possibilities yet to be uncovered......
 
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I say, keep on wondering. Keep on imagining. Don't set limits. Don't exclude or seek to exclude the notion of "god" from the plethora of interesting possibilities yet to be uncovered......

Alright. I guess we'll have to tell all those scientists we told to stop working to get back to lab. :rolleyes:

There happens to be a good reason for excluding the notion of things for which we have no evidence. The only alternative is complete insanity. Jumping at every shadow your imagination concocts is a shortcut to madness. Sure, you can sit around postulating all you like about possibilities of things for which there is no evidence and no way to test, but there are plenty of things we have evidence for right now that we don't understand. Got a unified theory of physics? A cure for cancer? A complete understanding of the origin of life? A way to feed the hungry? An AIDS vaccine? A way to compute beyond the transistor? A way to stop global warming? A better energy source than oil?

The scientific method starts with observation for a reason. If you have no way to see it, experiments are a waste of time. I suggest you roll up your sleeves and help rational minds carve out a better understanding of the real universe. It may not be as easy as just making crap up to make yourself feel better, but it sure answers a lot more questions.
 
Anyone want to list the names of people who believe in god(s) of any kind, but is also active, in the skeptical movement?

Here's some that come to my mind right away:

Martin Gardner
Hal Bidlack
Anthony Flew
Shmuley Boteach


I think it would be more interesting to identify people who are functioning skeptics, and believers, but *not* members of organized skepticism.

There was another thread about TAM4 where a member was asked by a passerby about the meeting and expressed surprise that skeptics were laughing and having a good time. This appeared to be a tale about how poorly the public understand what Skeptics are like.

OK, but at the same time, it's a cautionary tale about how weak our PR is.

There's another organization that has this problem: Mensa. 99.9% of people qualified to be members *do not join*. They don't need to be associated with an organization that has such bad PR.

By the same token, I believe that 80-90% of functioning skeptics - scientists &c - are well aware of organized skepticism but instead of getting involved, they just hope we'll keep a lid on it and not make them look bad.
 
I think it would be more interesting to identify people who are functioning skeptics, and believers, but *not* members of organized skepticism.

Me, for one.

There was another thread about TAM4 where a member was asked by a passerby about the meeting and expressed surprise that skeptics were laughing and having a good time. This appeared to be a tale about how poorly the public understand what Skeptics are like.

OK, but at the same time, it's a cautionary tale about how weak our PR is.

There's another organization that has this problem: Mensa. 99.9% of people qualified to be members *do not join*. They don't need to be associated with an organization that has such bad PR.

By the same token, I believe that 80-90% of functioning skeptics - scientists &c - are well aware of organized skepticism but instead of getting involved, they just hope we'll keep a lid on it and not make them look bad.

I wouldn't join Mensa. I don't believe that a single metric measures intelligence in any meaningful way. I'm not looking for a group to join. I think I'd be bored as hell.

Skepticism is another matter. I'm not a joiner - I'm not a member of any group or community, although I do participate in this forum now. Many of the people here are interesting, but many are not. Better than usual, though. I'm really not interested in persuading anyone of anything - I just enjoy sharing.

I haven't decided yet if an organized group of skeptics is something that I want to join. I'm not sure if our ends and means would be in accord enough to make it worthwhile.
 

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