Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[Samson]

Samson is somewhat mischaracterizing Grover's position. The app Giggle was designed to be a service for females exclusively. Males are, by design, disallowed to participate in the service. Grover's position is not to "refuse" transition. Grover's position is that even if a male has undertaken hormonal or surgical means to disguise their innate sex, they remain male. And as males, they are not allowed to take part in Giggle.

Grover does say as I characterized, minute 39 and on in the clip I posted. It is the first occasion I have seen an activist take this absolutist approach, and after watching my brother go from secret cross dresser to full on hormones, then death, I will not say she is necessarily wrong.

 

[Samson]

While I agree with some (not all) of what you have been saying here, I'd rather you not destroy the credibility of your arguments (and by association, mine) by referencing Putin. When you start invoking things that Putin is doing as justification for your position, you have lost the plot.

I mentioned Putin as an absolutist on medicalisation. He might be contrasted with Iran, where medicalisation is the only way for gay youth to express themselves.
But point taken, there may be an absolutist nation that bans medicalisation but encourages full same sex expression of love.

 

[Roboramma]

While I agree with some (not all) of what you have been saying here, I'd rather you not destroy the credibility of your arguments (and by association, mine) by referencing Putin. When you start invoking things that Putin is doing as justification for your position, you have lost the plot.

+10⁸⁸

 

[varwoche]

Grover does say as I characterized, minute 39 and on in the clip I posted. It is the first occasion I have seen an activist take this absolutist approach, and after watching my brother go from secret cross dresser to full on hormones, then death, I will not say she is necessarily wrong.

I'd bet every dollar I own that you're twisting reality beyond recognition.

Seeing as most everything you post is false, I don't think I'm out on a limb here.

 

[Samson]

I'd bet every dollar I own that you're twisting reality beyond recognition.

Seeing as most everything you post is false, I don't think I'm out on a limb here.

Inability to read a transcript, here it is from Sall Grover:

There are people who have gender dysphoria obviously and that is a medical condition.
I think that it is a scandal that its ever been treated medically and psychologically in any way other than helping that person accept reality that they're male or female.
I dont think that it should ever be a treatment to modify ones body to something they're not.

Now, given that the Australian government is funding an autogynephile to take her to the high Court, estimated cost to her and her crowd fund, 1 million dollars, so that he can join her female only club, I think that should be part of the mix and her opinion appraised with that in mind.

Bank
06 0158 0193965 00

Thanks

 

[novaphile]

Another challenging aspect of this case is the narrative of it being an anti-transgender hate crime. It's true that the victim was transgender; but the two accused individuals had a list of several other potential victims, none of which were transgender. It seems from their communications that their preferred target was not transgender, and that the ultimate victim was a "back up". This suggests that the victim was not targeted specifically because of their identification as transgender, but for some other reason that was shared among the rest of the potential victims on the list of the accused.

erm...

None of whom perhaps?

 

[gnome]

I am merely noting that Putin has a policy on trans, that does not mean I think he is right on same sex and waging war.

See JoeMorgue's comment. If you're trying to sell a position, pointing out that a nearly universally reviled person also holds that position is an odd take. Next tell me Jeffrey Dahmer's position on traffic laws.

 

[Brainster]

Here's a good one; a group of fifth graders were going on a field trip from Colorado to DC and Philadelphia. The parents were assured that while it would be four kids to a room and two kids to a bed, boys would be kept on one floor and girls on the other.

Well you can probably see the loophole there:

The Wailes’ 11-year-old daughter, who is identified in the letter as “D.W.,” was assigned to a room with three other students, according to the demand letter. Two of these students were girls from her school, and the third student was a boy who identified as a girl (named in the letter as “K.E.M.”) who went to a different school.

D.W. and K.E.M were told that they would share a bed, and that evening, when the students were in their room together, K.E.M. reportedly revealed to the girls that he is a boy who identified as a girl.

Apparently he was supposed to be in "stealth mode," but couldn't resist sharing his secret identity:

School chaperones called one of the trip leaders, Principal Ryan Lucas, who called the boy’s parents, according to the letter: “K.E.M.’s parents confirmed their child’s transgender gender identity and that K.E.M. was to be in ‘stealth mode,’ meaning students on the trip would not know about their child’s transgender status.”

After a good deal of trouble, chaperones finally agreed to move the male student, with a different female student, to another room.

It is unmentioned as to whether the different female student was aware she was going to be sleeping with a boy, although this makes me suspect not (from the complaint):

JCPS then silenced D.W., thus infringing on her freedom of speech, when a JCPS teacher told the three girls that they were not allowed to tell anyone that K.E.M. was transgender, even though K.E.M. voluntarily chose to share this information.”

 

[Samson]

Here's a good one; a group of fifth graders were going on a field trip from Colorado to DC and Philadelphia. The parents were assured that while it would be four kids to a room and two kids to a bed, boys would be kept on one floor and girls on the other.

Well you can probably see the loophole there:



Apparently he was supposed to be in "stealth mode," but couldn't resist sharing his secret identity:



It is unmentioned as to whether the different female student was aware she was going to be sleeping with a boy, although this makes me suspect not (from the complaint):

Just screwing these kids minds with "stealth mode" shows profound child abuse going on.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The talk about "just wanting privacy" would go a lot better if the "Trans are really stealth pedos running an organization infiltration campaign" people would shut up.

 

[theprestige]

The talk about "just wanting privacy" would go a lot better if the "Trans are really stealth pedos running an organization infiltration campaign" people would shut up.

On the other hand, it seems pretty clear that sexual predators of assorted types are running an infiltration campaign on Trans Rights Activism, with the goal of using it as a Trojan Horse to gain easier access to victims and as a defense against reprisals.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Regardless you can disagree with someone without this kind of conspiratorial demonization.

And as horrible as it is to phrase it this ways there's easier ways to get access to victims that don't involve having to role play as a group at the center of much controversy and attention.

There's a difference between saying the trans side is wrong and saying they are being dishonest. (With the obvious shouldn't have to be stated caveat that "wrong" and "honest" are over simplifications of complicated concepts with a crap ton of nuance and context.)

And more basically and pragmatically I'm not just going to ignore that "They are really practicing subterfuge as a way to get a children to make them sexual victims" isn't exactly an argument that hasn't been used against ever non-traditional sexuality ever so....

It's like if you told me you found a new kind of Jew but no this one really did practice blood libel. I don't think I'd believe you very easily.

The fact that you could take a lot of gay panic talk from the 80s and just swap out the nouns and be having the exact same discussion we're having now isn't something I'm going to just pretend isn't true to make the discussion easier.

Sure it would be lovely and neater if everyone could just form nice and easy "Yes or no" sides to this but there's a lot of complexity and nuance and despite me having issues with a lot of the trans movement that doesn't mean the anti-trans side isn't full of the same old bigoted scripts, barely dusted off and updated.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Regardless you can disagree with someone without this kind of conspiratorial demonization.

And as horrible as it is to phrase it this ways there's easier ways to get access to victims that don't involve having to role play as a group at the center of much controversy and attention.

There's a difference between saying the trans side is wrong and saying they are being dishonest. (With the obvious shouldn't have to be stated caveat that "wrong" and "honest" are over simplifications of complicated concepts with a crap ton of nuance and context.)

And more basically and pragmatically I'm not just going to ignore that "They are really practicing subterfuge as a way to get a children to make them sexual victims" isn't exactly an argument that hasn't been used against ever non-traditional sexuality ever so....

It's like if you told me you found a new kind of Jew but no this one really did practice blood libel. I don't think I'd believe you very easily.

The fact that you could take a lot of gay panic talk from the 80s and just swap out the nouns and be having the exact same discussion we're having now isn't something I'm going to just pretend isn't true to make the discussion easier.

Sure it would be lovely and neater if everyone could just form nice and easy "Yes or no" sides to this but there's a lot of complexity and nuance and despite me having issues with a lot of the trans movement that doesn't mean the anti-trans side isn't full of the same old bigoted scripts, barely dusted off and updated.

 

[theprestige]

Regardless you can disagree with someone without this kind of conspiratorial demonization.

Certainly.

But a big part of this particular disagreement is the TRA's refusal to recognize that risk, to take it seriously when forced kicking and screaming to acknowledge it, or to offer any suggestions at all for how to mitigate that risk in their pursuit of their ideal.

My starting concern in this thread - since way back at the very beginning - has been:

Fiat self-ID demonstrably creates a gaping loophole for predators and anti-social scumbags. It grants them access where they previously had none. It reduces or eliminates social remedies previously available to deal with their attempts at access. How do we close this loophole and restore some of the social remedies, without resorting to "papers, please"?​

And the consistent, resounding response from TRAs in this thread, for five ******* years, has been:

"Shut up, transphobe."​

So I think it's not only acceptable, but also necessary, to keep this demonic conspiracy* front and center in the debate.

---
*Your words, not mine. But whatever you want to call it, it's actually happening, and TRAs are actually enabling it.

 

[Upchurch]

And the consistent, resounding response from TRAs in this thread, for five ******* years, has been:

"Shut up, transphobe."​

You say that like every conservation I’ve had in this thread hasn’t ended with: “Shut up, TRA.”

That and multiple gross mis-characterizations of the argument I was making at the time.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You say that like every conservation I’ve had in this thread hasn’t ended with: “Shut up, TRA.”

That and multiple gross mis-characterizations of the argument I was making at the time.

Cool you're back. Gonna answer literally any of the questions asked to you or did you think you were gone long enough for a fringe reset?

 

[Upchurch]

or did you think you were gone long enough for a fringe reset?

“Shut up, TRA.”


It looks like I last posted on page 69. I don’t see you having any follow up questions after that, but I also don’t see the ad-homs which led to me taking a break. I’m guessing whatever you are upset about me not answering has been pruned.

 

[theprestige]

You say that like every conservation I’ve had in this thread hasn’t ended with: “Shut up, TRA.”

I mean this sincerely: Please keep talking.

Tell us your proposal for closing the predatory loopholes and restoring the social remedies that are dismantled by the advent of fiat self-ID.

 

[Upchurch]

I mean this sincerely: Please keep talking.

Tell us your proposal for closing the predatory loopholes and restoring the social remedies that are dismantled by the advent of fiat self-ID.

Single or unisex bathrooms and changing areas, largely.

Are you now willing to actually discuss the alternative to self identification, barring a physical examination and/or genetic testing, given that we can't visually recognize a person's sex but only how closely they adhere to a society's concept of gender norms?

 

[Roboramma]

“Shut up, TRA.”

Asking you to engage with the conversation, and answer the questions that people have asked, is pretty much the opposite of telling you to shut up.

It looks like I last posted on page 69. I don’t see you having any follow up questions after that, but I also don’t see the ad-homs which led to me taking a break. I’m guessing whatever you are upset about me not answering has been pruned.

That people didn't repeat questions you had already failed to answer several times doesn't mean that they aren't still waiting for an answer.