General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Leumas]

It would be sensible to tell the Palestinian people of Gaza what the plan is.

The terrorist Zionist Jihadist organization (a.k.a. Likud Party) already declared their plans for the final solution for mowing of the lawn (Nazi style) to the whole world 9 years ago.




And of course the war criminal Netanyahu, the leader of the Likud terrorist organization founded by another war criminal and a wanted terrorist, also has been repeatedly declaring for the whole world EVEN BIGGER plans for even more Genocide to mow a more problematic lawn.

[imgw=300]https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2012/09/APTOPIX-UN-General-As_Horo-640x400.jpg[/imgw]​

 

[Leumas]

"Internationally-Recognized Borders"?
You stated that "the 1949 lines which are recognized by the United Nations as its legal border."
So, when did this occur?
...

It is amusing how you... with one side claim the U.N. as a legitimization for Zionist Jihadists' settler colonialist project of Israel... and yet with the other side dismiss the U.N. when you want to justify its criminal actions ever since it was created.


Have you ever heard of

• Resolution 181 (II) of 1947) and
• Security Council Resolution 242 (1967)
• Security Council Resolution 338

After looking at alternatives, the UN proposed terminating the Mandate and partitioning Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947).

One of the two envisaged States proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war involving neighbouring Arab States expanded to 77 percent of the territory of mandate Palestine, including the larger part of Jerusalem.

Over half of the Palestinian Arab population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt controlled the rest of the territory assigned by resolution 181 to the Arab State.

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied these territories (Gaza Strip and the West Bank) including East Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council Resolution 242 (1967) formulated the principles of a just and lasting peace, including an Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the conflict, a just settlement of the refugee problem, and the termination of all claims or states of belligerency.

The 1973 hostilities were followed by Security Council Resolution 338, which inter alia called for peace negotiations between the parties concerned.

In 1974 the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence, sovereignty, and to return.

The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People and conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in UN conferences.

 

[Hercules56]

There is a case to be made about the legality of those Jewish homesteads in Judea and Samaria, as well as the incorporation/reunification of the Jerusalem municipalty.
If the case ever comes in front of an international justice tribunal (ICJ or ICC) then the matter can be adjudicated and a determination made regarding what rights Israel retains under international laws to have facilitated the voluntary residents of the towns, villages, farms and cities over the defunct 'ceasefire lines' of 1949.
Same as Gaza, when some brave Jews in the last century realized that there was no good reason to exclude us from the coastal salient (where our synagogues and homes had stood, before being overrun by marauding Bedouins or whomever). Those people had to vacate their beautiful homes and synagogues, in the face of Palestinian armed attacks.

I do know the ICJ and ICC are considering what to do about the matter being raised by Palestinians that declare Israel needs to be prosecuted over 'the settlements'

Israeli Supreme Court already ruled in 2004 that Judea & Samaria (Arab Palestine/West Bank) are under belligerent military occupation and bound by the 1907 Hague Conventions and the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/n...ment-israel-et-al-hcj-205604-supreme-court-20

This means that Israel cannot transfer its own population into Arab Palestine, by force or willingly.

 

[webfusion]

The 1949 Armistice line in the West Bank, is the limit of Israeli legal sovereignity. Beyond that is Occupied Territory, according to the Israeli Supreme Court.

....which is still a valid court, even though Netanyahu and his Likudfuhrers want to destroy it.

The Israeli courts system will be just fine, thanks for your concern.

You said there was an Internationally-Recognized Border, and when pressed to show what you were talking about, you then moved goalposts, and referred to an Israeli Supreme Court decision (which one?) that ostensibly looks at what the term "Legally Occupied Territory" means in regards to sovereignty.

Hebron as we all know, for instance, is not within the Israeli zone of civil control (it's not part of Area C).
These lands are under various arrangements as far as who handles what. Memorandums between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority provide guidance about administering things in many spheres, including trade, finance, water, roadways, birth and death registrations, automobile registrations, insurance, travel documents, etc.

For years there has been an international consensus view that supports the establishment of a Palestinian state on the pre-1967 lines (1949) with minor, equivalent land swaps that would allow Israel to annex the major settlements (larger towns and cities). The Palestinian capital would be in East Jerusalem, with sovereignty over the holy site known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary or al-Aqsa mosque compound, and overland contiguity with the rest of the Palestinian state (Gaza). Israel would withdraw its forces from checkposts and bases all over the West Bank and release Palestinian prisoners. And Palestinian refugees would be offered compensation, along with the right to return, not to their homes, but to their homeland in the State of Palestine, and acknowledgment of Israel’s partial responsibility for the refugee problem, by Israel allowing entry for family reunifications (case by case) on a scale that would not perceptibly change Israel’s demography, ( there was talk of return of 100,000 or so first-generation older refugees to their pre-1948 lands and if possible, previous homes.

That paradigm has failed to gain traction.
So, maybe let's see everyone shift gears and start down a completely different pathway, that might actually work?

 

[Hercules56]

The Israeli courts system will be just fine, thanks for your concern.

You said there was an Internationally-Recognized Border, and when pressed to show what you were talking about, you then moved goalposts, and referred to an Israeli Supreme Court decision (which one?) that ostensibly looks at what the term "Legally Occupied Territory" means in regards to sovereignty.

Hebron as we all know, for instance, is not within the Israeli zone of civil control (it's not part of Area C).
These lands are under various arrangements as far as who handles what. Memorandums between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority provide guidance about administering things in many spheres, including trade, finance, water, roadways, birth and death registrations, automobile registrations, insurance, travel documents, etc.

For years there has been an international consensus view that supports the establishment of a Palestinian state on the pre-1967 lines (1949) with minor, equivalent land swaps that would allow Israel to annex the major settlements (larger towns and cities). The Palestinian capital would be in East Jerusalem, with sovereignty over the holy site known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary or al-Aqsa mosque compound, and overland contiguity with the rest of the Palestinian state (Gaza). Israel would withdraw its forces from checkposts and bases all over the West Bank and release Palestinian prisoners. And Palestinian refugees would be offered compensation, along with the right to return, not to their homes, but to their homeland in the State of Palestine, and acknowledgment of Israel’s partial responsibility for the refugee problem, by Israel allowing entry for family reunifications (case by case) on a scale that would not perceptibly change Israel’s demography, ( there was talk of return of 100,000 or so first-generation older refugees to their pre-1948 lands and if possible, previous homes.

Israel is not soverign beyond the 1949 cease-fire lines. They are the Occupying Power. They are bound by the 1907 Hague Conventions and 1949 Geneva Conventions with regards to Judea and Samaria (Arab Palestine/West Bank). So says the Israeli Supreme Court, twice I might add.

However the Israeli Supreme Court ALSO said that the IDF has the right & authority to build security fences and confiscate private property of Palestinians, in order to protect settlers, EVEN if their presence is illegal. That I find absurd. Law-breakers have no right to demand protective infrastructure be built to defend their law-breaking.

 

[webfusion]

Buried in the above rant by Leumas -- "...withdraw from territories occupied in the conflict" UN242

Not "THE" territories, but "territories" (undefined).

Israel has done so, it withdrew from all of Sinai (by 1982) and in 2005, Gaza.
Israel went to the UN for clarification regarding the BlueLine along the Lebanese border.
(Sykes-Picot Lines)
Israel still holds Golan (Syria refuses to deal with Israel about the subject, period), and Jordan and Israel already concluded land-swaps along their Arava boundary.

What remains is a quandry regarding the Judean and Samaria hills. And the Haram-alSharif.

 

[Leumas]

...
That paradigm has failed to gain traction.
So, maybe let's see everyone shift gears and start down a completely different pathway, that might actually work?

So long as the Christian Zionists in the U.K. and the U.S.A. and around the world keep annually giving the Zionist Jihadists BILLION$$$ to keep financing and expanding their Settler Colonialist project... and while the same Zionists keep purchasing the services of the venal whoring legislators of both Imperialist powers to keep VETOING anything coming even close to abating the CRIMES against humanity of their project to hasten the return of their human sacrificed ill begotten son of a COSMIC DEMON in order to take a Mulligan... nothing will ever be done or can be done.

[imgw=250]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512826556381faa4a5.jpg[/imgw]​

 

[Hercules56]

Buried in the above rant by Leumas -- "...withdraw from territories occupied in the conflict" UN242

Not "THE" territories, but "territories" (undefined)...

This is what lawyers call a "distinction without a difference". An artificially created distinction where no real difference exists.

Its cute, but its wrong.

 

[Leumas]

Buried in the above rant by Leumas -- "...withdraw from territories occupied in the conflict" UN242

Not "THE" territories, but "territories" (undefined).

Israel has done so, it withdrew from all of Sinai (by 1982) and in 2005, Gaza.
Israel went to the UN for clarification regarding the BlueLine along the Lebanese border.
(Sykes-Picot Lines)
Israel still holds Golan (Syria refuses to deal with Israel about the subject, period), and Jordan and Israel already concluded land-swaps along their Arava boundary.

What remains is a quandry regarding the Judean and Samaria hills. And the Haram-alSharif.

And in the above blithering blather by webfusion is a very honest pointing out of the blatant CHUTZPAH of the Zionist Settler Colonialists distortion of reality and humanity.

 

[webfusion]

Israeli Supreme Court already ruled in 2004 that Judea & Samaria (Arab Palestine/West Bank) are under belligerent military occupation and bound by the 1907 Hague Conventions and the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

This means that Israel cannot transfer its own population into Arab Palestine, by force or willingly.

Again, that matter has never been decided definitively, and you are drawing a legal conclusion regarding a very intractable dispute.

Israel left Gaza because the cost-benefit of the Jewish communities there was too risky (especially amid the fears that something akin to 10-7 would occur to the Jews of Neve Dekalim, Nisanit, Morag, Dugit, et.al. and the Israeli leaders chose to abandon the Strip rather than continue to provide protection).

Unfortunately, we were caught with our guard down on 10-7 and Jewish communities outside of Gaza ended up paying the ultimate price at the hands of their neighbors to the south.

 

[Hercules56]

Again, that matter has never been decided definitively, and you are drawing a legal conclusion regarding a very intractable dispute.

Israel left Gaza because the cost-benefit of the Jewish communities there was too risky (especially amid the fears that something akin to 10-7 would occur to the Jews of Neve Dekalim, Nisanit, Morag, Dugit, et.al. and the Israeli leaders chose to abandon the Strip rather than continue to provide protection).

How many times does your Supreme Court have to rule before you finally open your eyes? Ignoring the rule of law and deciding that legal rulings are illegitimate when they rule not in your favor, is the beginning of Fascism.

 

[Leumas]

How many times does your Supreme Court have to rule before you finally open your eyes? Ignoring the rule of law and deciding that legal rulings are illegitimate when they rule not in your favor, is the beginning of Fascism.

Ha... "beginning"?

Zionism is fascism...

[imgw=350]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512825407ec546c5ab.jpg[/imgw]​

 

[webfusion]

This is what lawyers call a "distinction without a difference". An artificially created distinction where no real difference exists.

Its cute, but its wrong.

The authors of that Resolution were very specific in their language usage. The article "the" was deleted intentionally, and purposefully, because it has a legal meaning and Ralph Bunche wanted to make sure that there was no ambiguity in the call for 'withdrawal from territories' (not ALL THE territories).

This is what lawyers call "a very critical distinction" and it was done with care and aforethought.

If you are unsure of that, maybe listen to Dean Rusk --
'There was much bickering over whether that resolution should say from "the" territories or from "all" territories. (In the French version... it says withdrawal 'des territory' with des meaning "the.")
We (the USA) wanted that to be left a little vague and subject to future negotiation because we thought the Israeli border along the West Bank could be "rationalized"; certain anomalies could easily be straightened out with some exchanges of territory, making a more sensible border for all parties. We also wanted to leave open demilitarization measures in the Sinai and the Golan Heights and take a fresh look at the old city of Jerusalem...'

 

[Leumas]

The authors of that Resolution were very specific in their language usage. The article "the" was deleted intentionally, and purposefully, because it has a legal meaning and Ralph Bunche wanted to make sure that there was no ambiguity in the call for 'withdrawal from territories' (not ALL THE territories).

This is what lawyers call "a very critical distinction" and it was done with care and aforethought.

If you are unsure of that, maybe listen to Dean Rusk --
'There was much bickering over whether that resolution should say from "the" territories or from "all" territories. (In the French version... it says withdrawal 'des territory' with des meaning "the.")
We (the USA) wanted that to be left a little vague and subject to future negotiation because we thought the Israeli border along the West Bank could be "rationalized"; certain anomalies could easily be straightened out with some exchanges of territory, making a more sensible border for all parties. We also wanted to leave open demilitarization measures in the Sinai and the Golan Heights and take a fresh look at the old city of Jerusalem...'

Yes indeed it is what Alan Dirtheshitz would call "if the glove does not fit" level of sordid skullduggery and venal shyster lawyering.



But... what I want to know... is how are you so privy to all this and so sure about their venal legerdemain and purposeful chicanery and sleight of pen in wording the slippery "rationalization"?


Was Dean Rusk a Christian Zionist or just Calvinist Christian? Are you privy to that too???

... certain anomalies could easily be straightened out with some exchanges of territory, making a more sensible border for all parties.

Evidently the anomalies deliberately and carefully INSERTED... were not that easily straightened... and the only exchange these DELIBERATE anomalies have RATIONALIZED is Zionist skullduggery.

We also wanted to leave open demilitarization measures in the Sinai and the Golan Heights and take a fresh look at the old city of Jerusalem...'

In other words... leave LOOPHOLES for shenanigans and chicanery to allow the Zionist RATIONALIZATION to go through.

But yet again... I must say... that throughout this thread you have been an honest and informative interlocutor...

I really have to thank you... you educated me on a few things I did not know about the extent of the ZIONIST CHESS GAME being played with human lives at a level the German Nazis would have been very proud of.

 

[Roboramma]

The Jews of Europe were not simply Germans, Italians, Russians, French, etc who happened to practise the Jewish religion.

History and genetic research shows us a very different story.

Ashkenazi Jews are for the most part descended from Israelites who headed north and west from Palestine after the Romans destroyed Judea in AD 135. Some converts from Europe were brought in but that all ended when the Christians strarted passing strong laws banning Jews from taking on converts, forcing them into ghettos, banning from owning lands, farms, property and jobs for most Jews. Basically due to Christian bigoted laws the Jews of Europe became a nation inside a nation. Situation was basically the same in North Africa and the Middle East.

Leumas and others talk like the Jews of Europe are literally just Europeans who converted to Judaism over the centuries. Its historical-revisionism and dishonest propaganda.


And btw, Jews faced lots of violence and discrimination over the years under Muslim rule in Muslim lands. It was not all hunky doree until Zionism came along. Such an idea is more dishonest propaganda.

This.

 

[Leumas]

This.

Only if Planet Krypton is true would "this" be true... the Bible is only fairy tales and myths... if you knew anything about biology or anthropology or sociology or linguistics or archaeology or economics or REAL HISTORY... you would know that that "this" is arrant nonsense.

As proven so very easily by the following two photos.... which of all those various Jewish Europeans and Jewish Asians do you think "this" applies to

[imgw=300]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512825407f70112e27.jpg[/imgw]

[imgw=300]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512825407ecdedae7e.jpg[/imgw]​

While you are trying to apply antisemitic racist claptrap like that in the "this" to figure out whether to exclude the Asian or the blond or the brown or the pink or the brunette or the black or the white Jews from being descended from a mythical fairy tales character... and make the Nazis proud of that....


Read the below... it is not Nazi satisfying antisemitism like the "this" and is rather in line with REALITY AND FACTS not fairy tales and myths.

The above are PERFIDIOUS ZIONIST MYTHS just like the NAZI myths they fabricated for themselves as being Übermenschen descendants of Atlantians.

Let me remind you of a FACT... the Sumerian peripatetic PIMP was as much of a real guy as Kal El.

And thus... this myth of "jews as a race" is a myth just as the myth of the Exodus.

The only real thing is that there were simpleton HUMANS who followed religious MYTHS and FABLES and FAIRY TALES of various kinds and who were HUMANS just like all the other humans from the places they were born on.

All humans are a mixture of humans... there are no and never were Übermenschen the product of 12 mythical Sumerian men the great-grandchildren of a mythical Sumerian pimp inbreeding with their sisters and mothers for centuries while also being slaves in Egypt.

Get that... impossible fairy tales like a man shooting laser out of his eyes and a man parting the sea and so on are all CHILDISH IDIOTIC fables.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

This.

I think someone is struggling with the concept that 'descended from' doesn't always mean 'looks exactly like'.

 

[Leumas]

Christian Zionism = Antisemitism

I think someone has no idea what biology or anthropology is.

And instead get their "alternative facts" from fairy tales.

One cannot be descended from Mythical Sumerian Pimps who never existed nor from fables of 430 years of inbreeding with one's mothers and sisters and aunts and nieces.

Besides... someone is parroting the NAZI rallying cry for antisemitism and racism.

...
Ashkenazi Jews are for the most part descended from Israelites.... a nation inside a nation.....

Adolf Eichmann could not have expressed it better nor hoped for a better support for the reason he and the other Nazis and even Martin Luther et al wanted to GET RID of this FOREIGN "nation" within their FATHERLAND.

It is amazing to what extent of racism rationalization antisemitic Christian Zionists would stoop to in order to dupe themselves with the biblical fairy tales, trying their utmost to make them into "alternative facts" despite all REALITY and SCIENCE and sanity and decency.

...
Ashkenazi Jews are for the most part descended from Israelites.... a nation inside a nation.....

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming.

...In connection with the Jewish question I have this to say:

...Jewish people... We cannot take them...

For hundreds of years Germany was good enough to receive these elements, although they possessed nothing except infectious political and physical diseases. What they possess today, they have by a very large extent gained at the cost of the less astute German nation by the most reprehensible manipulations.

 

[Roboramma]

I will admit that I share with anti-semites the fact that I recognize that Jews exist.

 

[Leumas]

Christian Zionism = anti-Judaism

I will admit that I share with anti-semites the fact that I recognize that Jews exist.

Believing that there are people who follow the religion of Judaism is not racist...

To believe that people who follow the religion of Judaism are a race distinct from the REST OF HUMANITY and especially different from the Europeans and rather they are the product of centuries of INBREEDING between mythical Sumerian pimps and their mothers and sisters and nieces and daughters... is vile and preposterous racism.

Do you also share that they are to GET OUT of your country and must go to other people's country and kill them and ethnically cleanse them... just as long as they stay out of YOUR NATION?

Do you believe that they need to create lakes of knee-deep human blood in order for the damnable piece of **** bastard Jesus to come back and take a mulligan and kill the rest of the Jews who do not lick his taint?