General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Hercules56]

I am very sure that the NAZI occupation forces felt the same about the resistances against their occupation too.

[imgw=350]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_51282655d048fd204f.jpg[/imgw]​

Jewish partisans didn't murder innocent German civilians.

 

[Leumas]

Hamas destroyed, Gaza a wasteland. Then what?

Zionist Jihadist Settler Colonialists (from USA and UK and Russia and Ukraine and India etc.) move BACK into Gaza as they were there before... but this time in ALL of Gaza instead of just parts of it... with the grass well mowed.


In the map of Gaza below the blue spots were Zionist Settler Colonialist colonies.

[imgw=400]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Gaza_strip_may_2005.jpg/800px-Gaza_strip_may_2005.jpg[/imgw]​

 

[Hercules56]

It worked for the British and the French and Dutch on 4 continents... The Zionist Jihadists are Europeans after all and have learned from the best examples of how to be ruthless self-righteous supremacist Settler Colonialists after a good Ethnic Cleansing of the irksome autochthonous peoples of their colonies.

Um, a majority of Israeli Jews have non-white non-European ancestry.

 

[lobosrul5]

It worked for the British and the French and Dutch on 4 continents... The Zionist Jihadists are Europeans after all and have learned from the best examples of how to be ruthless self-righteous supremacist Settler Colonialists after a good Ethnic Cleansing of the irksome autochthonous peoples of their colonies.

Total white supremacist's those Israeli's

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546

 

[Leumas]

Jewish partisans didn't murder innocent German civilians.

You are arrantly mistaken? (and this one... and this one)

Jewish resistance in German-occupied Europe

Jewish resistance under Nazi rule took various forms of organized underground activities conducted against German occupation regimes in Europe by Jews during World War II.... actions that were taken against all laws and actions acted by Germans.... both passive and armed resistance conducted by Jews themselves.

... Jews accounted for about 15–20% of the French Resistance.... launched attacks against occupying German forces, and targeted Nazi informants and Gestapo agents... participated in the general French uprising of August 1944, fighting in Paris, Lyon, and Toulouse.

Jewish resistance within Germany itself during the Nazi era took a variety of forms, from sabotage and disruptions... Its most notable action was the bombing of an anti-Soviet exhibit organized by Joseph Goebbels in Berlin's Lustgarten. The action resulted in mass arrests, executions, and reprisals against German Jews. Because of the reprisals it provoked, the bombing led to debate within opposition circles similar to those that took place elsewhere where the Jewish resistance was active—taking action and risking murderous reprisals vs. being non-confrontational with the hopes of maximizing survival.

In the Netherlands, the only pre-war group that immediately started resistance against the German occupation was the communist party... They made several bomb attacks on German troop trains and arson attacks on cinemas, which were forbidden for Jews....

 

[lobosrul5]

You are arrantly mistaken? (and this one... and this one)

Lies, more lies, and things completely unrelated to "murders of innocent German civilians".

You did however, get me interested in this supposed bombing of an anti-Soviet Museum in 1942. I had never heard of it, however:

The resulting fires were extinguished quickly, there were no deaths and only eleven people had trouble breathing because of the smoke. Another setback was that the exposition opened the next day as usual.

https://www.tracesofwar.com/articles/7196/Herbert-Baum-Gruppe.htm

ETA: oh and reading through it, they actually did less damage than they could've out of fear they'd kill innocents polar opposite of Hamas whose goal is to kill as many innocents as they can. On account of them being terrorists, not resistance fighters.

 

[Leumas]

Um, a majority of Israeli Jews have non-white non-European ancestry.

Again FACTS prove you arrantly mistaken.

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of January 1, 2020, of Israel's 9.136 million people, 74.1% were Jews of any background. Among them, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel)—22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries. Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey, and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews.

 

[webfusion]

No more rockets every night ? Sounds nice.

I think Israel is seeking somewhat more than just that limited result, this time around.
We've been down that path of "industrial quiet" after previous efforts to stop Hamas (2021 being the last one). Israel arranged a ceasefire each time that Hamas was on the ropes, due to 'mounting international pressures' and the result is what we experienced on 10-7.

Look at the Latuff cartoon that Leumas provided above in post # -- it was created in 2007.
Think about that for a second. In over a decade+1/2 the Israelis are back at square 1 with regards to our neighbors to the south.

Nessie, I've offered everyone here in several of my posts a perfectly reasonable and dynamic resolution to the intractable conflict -- namely, a NewState in part of Historical Palestine. This mini-Nation-State in statu nascendi provides an answer to all the Palestinian demands.
1. Their own lands, to grow and flourish alongside Israel, yet not have ANY Jews living within their borders. (Judenrein)
2. Access to sea and rail and air. (See: El-Arish)
3. Wide and generous Arab support, including by Saudi Arabia.
4. Giving refugees wordwide a place to call home, without threatening the demographics of the Jewish State. (we will consider famility reunifications to come live in Israel on a case-by-case basis).
5. No need to spend any of their State budget on military. (see: Guns or Butter)
6. Admittance to the UN as a member Nation. (they're now just an Observer Nation)
7. Agreement on the disposition of Haram al-Sharif, with the Kingdom of Jordan taking the mantle of "protector of Islamic Holy Grounds" and placing the Royal Jordanian Guards there, for show.
(Israel will naturally maintain overall security control of the entire city of Jerusalem, including this 37-acre public park area). NewState residents will be granted over-passage rights by Israel, into Hebron and from there, a short taxi or bus ride over to al-Quds.
8. Renewed access to funding, tech, and trade (with Hamas in charge, and designated as a terrorist group, the current restrictions on all the above are very draconian and prevent development of Gaza).
9. UNRWA will cease to exist, as it's no longer needed.
10. Palestinians will know peace.

 

[Hercules56]

Again FACTS prove you arrantly mistaken.

Almost 900,000 immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East moved to Israel and today 60% of Israeli Jews have ancestors from those areas.

 

[lobosrul5]

Again FACTS prove you arrantly mistaken.

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of January 1, 2020, of Israel's 9.136 million people, 74.1% were Jews of any background. Among them, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel)—22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries. Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey, and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews.

Last time I checked "nearly half" is not a majority. Also, a majority of European Jews are descended from people not from Europe.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Since I never got any feedback on this I'm just gonna repeat, because I think it does speak to something that does matter in how we're discussing this.

Unless you're squatting in the Olduvai Gorge with a 23&Me print out the traces your lineage directly back to Lucy what person living anywhere has the kind of "right" to a piece of land being hairsplit here?

I'm going to hazard a guess that the number of people alive today actually living in some place with a direct lineage to some far ancient ancestor in any open and honest sense of the term is not that many. As I've asked many times and gotten no answer what country WOULD be "valid" country under this line of discourse.

The country of Iraq is exactly as old as the Polaroid Camera, the Parking Meter, and the Radio Telescope, and nobody is questioning Iraq's right to exist over it.

Humanity has been breaking for the horizon to see what's over the next hill literally since before we were human and we've migrated/been displaced constantly since then. Using "Okay but did a goat herder with your DNA live on this exact spot a bajillion years ago?" as some moral/legal/international diplomacy standard now seem weird at best.

And again are we talking Israel and Palestine as modern city-states or as ancient tribal homelands? These are not the same thing.

Yet again so nobody (at)s me yes it's absurd in 2023 that a country with the stated reason for existence is to serve as a homeland for a specific religious group exists and Israel's continuing existence (in the sense of how it's organized as a nation-state politically and diplomatically not in the "wipe it off the face of the Earth" sense) DOES need to be predicated on it dropping that part of its identity but like all criticisms of Israel that applies to a lot of Muslims countries even more.

If Saudi Arabia gets to have Mecca, a place that literally bans non-Muslims from existing inside it, Israel can be a "Jewish Country" where only 3/4s of the population is actually Jewish. Israel is only about 10% more Jewish then American is Christian.

 

[Leumas]

Total white supremacist's those Israeli's

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546

Yes... the British Settler Colonialists in Africa brought Indians from India to labor for them in their Settler Colonialist projects.

...Britain faced a huge labour shortage in its colonies. The British were therefore keen to recruit labour, especially since the government was then overseeing various infrastructure and labour-intensive projects. Thus, in the 1860s indentured contracts were utilised to transport cheap labour across the British Empire. Simultaneously, British colonial rule in India had pushed more and more Indians into poverty, as the British exploited the continent’s resources, forcing many individuals to look for alternative livelihoods and income streams so as to support themselves and their families. This made migration a more palatable option. The situation was compounded by a series of droughts that hit the north-western regions of India in the late nineteenth century, exacerbating poverty and causing many people to flee the affected areas. Between 1829 and 1924, a total of 769,427 Indians migrated to Mauritius, South Africa, the Seychelles, and East Africa....

 

[webfusion]

Again FACTS prove you arrantly mistaken.

It's not as clear-cut as you make it seem. Your invective here needs to be toned-down if you prefer to be taken seriously. Offering a continuous stream of Anti-Jew rhetoric and trying to force-feed us your Israel=Nazis propaganda isn't helping your 'case' either.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/latest-population-statistics-for-israel

There is a lot of statistical info presented by that article, but nothing about the Askenaz/Sephardi background. I could look into that elsewhere, but it's not really a point worth pursuing.

 

[lobosrul5]

Yes... the British Settler Colonialists in Africa brought Indians from India to labor for them in their Settler Colonialist projects.

And? What the actual **** is your point bringing up British colonialism? How is that relevant to the current subject?

 

[Leumas]

Last time I checked "nearly half" is not a majority. Also, a majority of European Jews are descended from people not from Europe.

Almost 900,000 immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East moved to Israel and today 60% of Israeli Jews have ancestors from those areas.

Thanks for proving that Israel is a Settler Colonialist OCCUPATION of Palestine...

Imagine if Muslims did the same... and brought Indian Muslims and Chinese Muslims and Persian Muslims and Russian Muslims to displace and ethnically cleanse say Ukraine while confining the Ukrainians to Concentration Camps.

You have just proven the Zionist Jihadists as nothing but Settler Colonialist OCCUPIERS of Palestine... well done.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And? What the actual **** is your point bringing up British colonialism? How is that relevant to the current subject?

Because colonialism is the core of the "Underdog, ergo the good guy" narrative for the Palestinians.

He's just slamming the "White Guilt" button over and over.

 

[Leumas]

And? What the actual **** is your point bringing up British colonialism? How is that relevant to the current subject?

British Settler Colonialists bringing Indian people to help in their settler colonialist projects in Africa... is the same as European Zionists Settler Colonialists bringing Africans to help them in their Settler Colonialist Project in Palestine...


That is what the " actual **** " is the point in response to you citing African migrants brought into Israel as your attempt to obfuscate from Israel being a European Zionist Settler Colonialist project.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm so sick of "colonist."

Nobody on the goddamn planet lives where their ancestors used to live.

 

[Leumas]

Because colonialism is the core of the "Underdog, ergo the good guy" narrative for the Palestinians.

He's just slamming the "White Guilt" button over and over.

No... I am slamming FACTS and REALITY and HISTORY...

If Facts and Reality and History cause "white guilt" then... ah well... then they are indeed guilty and should feel ashamed and perhaps STOP doing more crimes... and then justify dismissing the pointing out of the FACTS and REALITY and HISTORY of their NEW CRIMES as just smashing "white guilt" buttons.

This is like a a thief objecting to being called a thief because his thievery was done long ago... while he is in the process of robbing a bank.

 

[webfusion]

I never realized that there was anyone who didn't realize Israel is a nation with a large immigrant population from elsewhere on earth. I always figured that was a well-known paradigm regarding the composition of Israel's residents.