General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Leumas]

Agreed, Israelis can be total dicks but what I'm talking about here is western support for Hamas's attack on 10/7 ...

What about "western support" for Israel for over 56 years with BILLION$$$ every year over year over year with weapons of mass destruction and Israel using it to keep its Settler Colonialist ILLEGAL OCCUPUTION of Palestine and its HUMAN RIGHTS CRIMES against them of refusing to allow the humans right of return to the refugees Israel created with the BILLION$$$ in support from the "west" not to mention the APARTHEID and ethnic cleansing???

 

[Leumas]

Leumas, I am not going to engage with you.
The IDF is doing exactly the things which will result in Hamas being unable to rule Gaza anymore.

By committing GENOCIDE and murdering over 12,000 people SO FAR and counting...

Any sane person would argue that what Israel is doing... unless they EXTERMINATE all of the rest... is create future generations of ???... whatever the new name of the new equivalent of Hamas is going to be.

So is the IDF going to EXTIRPATE all of them?

By the way, just because one side has inferior weaponry...

NAZI STYLE Sippenhaftung on UNARMED (not inferiorly) WOMEN and CHILDREN and babies and men... is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY and decency and morality and sanity... NOT A WAR.

Murdering during a Settler Colonialist Zionist JIHAD of 12,000 and counting souls to get a few scores of terrorists is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY and decency and morality and sanity.

 

[lionking]

What about "western support" for Israel for over 56 years with BILLION$$$ every year over year over year with weapons of mass destruction and Israel using it to keep its Settler Colonialist ILLEGAL OCCUPUTION of Palestine and its HUMAN RIGHTS CRIMES against them of refusing to allow the humans right of return to the refugees Israel created with the BILLION$$$ in support from the "west" not to mention the APARTHEID and ethnic cleansing???

Oh boo hoo. You’ve backed the wrong side. Live with it.

 

[webfusion]

but the IDF doesn't mean to ...

Mean to... what? Committing genocide? Is that what you think?

Well, I've seen the signs in the streets. I especially noticed the poster with the little boy with his teddybear, and an IAF Apache 'copter aiming their ordnance right at him. (Latuff).

Oh wait, where did that image disappear to? It was all the rage of pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel crowd during the last IDF operation Guardian of the Walls (2021) or maybe it was during Protective Edge (2014) or maybe from Pillar of Defense (2011) ? Hard to keep track.
Carlos, bless his heart, has offered his anti-Israel drawings to the public for re-use (he X's that message, with the hashtags "# GazaGenocide" and other hastags with the word genocide in them. )

 

[Leumas]

...the last IDF operation Guardian of the Walls (2021) or maybe it was during Protective Edge (2014) or maybe from Pillar of Defense (2011)? Hard to keep track....

Yes... it is indeed hard to keep track of all the GENOCIDES and CRIMES of the Zionist Jihadists... except perhaps for the VICTIMS of those crimes.

And by the way... giving the Zionist Jihad crimes fancy epithets does not make them any less genocidal and criminal.

But hey... thanks for admitting the REPEATED ethnic cleansing and crimes of Israel... you missed few scores more though.

 

[webfusion]

Yes... it is indeed hard to keep track of all the GENOCIDES and CRIMES of the Zionist Jihadists... except perhaps for the VICTIMS of those crimes.

And by the way... giving the Zionist Jihad crimes fancy epithets does not make them any less genocidal and criminal.

But hey... thanks for admitting the REPEATED ethnic cleansing and crimes of Israel... you missed few scores more though.

Yeah, so whattaya gonna do about it, I'm guessing nothing? Just sit there, enjoy the fireworks, and when the smoke clears, we'll see what is the Gazans' next step. They better be mindful about how they proceed, The intervention of Yemini Houthi military assets adds a very dangerous dimension to this conflict (even more problematic than Hezbollah).

 

[ThatGuy11200]

Agreed, Israelis can be total dicks but what I'm talking about here is western support for Hamas's attack on 10/7 and the question it raises about how much of this supposed support "for the innocent Palestinians" is actually support for Hamas and their terror attack on unarmed civilians.

The story of what's going on with the al-Shifa hospital is still unfolding. Remember, the White House confirmed that Hamas was operating under it and we'll just have to wait and see what comes of the investigation. Maybe they'll find a bunker or maybe it'll be debunked like the 40 beheaded babies and the Israeli air strike on the al-Ahli Hospital with the 500 dead.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital/ar-AA1jZnXA

Fact Check: Did Israel Build Bunker Under Shifa Hospital?

...

True.

Multiple sources have corroborated that a bunker or basement was built at Israel's discretion in the 1980s.

It remains unclear whether Hamas operates the space beneath the hospital as a major military headquarters, even though the IDF has presented evidence of weapons stashed in the hospital.

 

[webfusion]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital/ar-AA1jZnXA

Israel has bigger fish to fry than dwelling too much on the details of who/what/where of al-Shifa medical facility.
It's really not very important at this late stage. The IDF is releasing videos and info regarding what they've found, OK, fine, let's move on.

By the way, there was never a claim about 40 beheaded children. There were 40 children found dead, some (or even one) of whom were without their skulls attached to their shoulders.
Again, in the Grand Scheme of Things, let's see everyone moving towards International efforts that result in the total conclusion of this war. (i.e. -- seeing Hadar Goldin's and Oren Shaul's partial-cadavers returned, along with all other bodies that Hamas knows the whereabouts of).

If they don't know, then just say "we lost 'em, in the melee" and we'll work with that, somehow.

 

[Leumas]

Killing people is wrong. Rape is wrong. Sexual assault is wrong. Sexual assault is routinely practiced by Shin Bet when interrogating female detainees as part of the stress process (which also involves a variety of other physical stresses).

We do not know exactly what happened on 07/10, we know that the numbers killed were fewer than Israel first reported, we know the beheading of forty children as first reported was untrue. We know some deaths of Israelis were 'collateral damage' in the fight against the terrorists. We also know that groups other than Hamas entered Israel through the breaches made. Almost certainly some crimes were committed by groups other than Hamas.

To be clear even if actual members of Hamas did not commit certain crimes Hamas is morally and legally responsible for crimes committed on that day. Even for 'colateral damage'.

Hamas committed crimes. That does not excuse Israel committing crimes, such as the routine sexual assault of female detainees and occasional rape (videoed to provide blackmail material), the extra-judicial execution of detainees, deliberate mass starvation of a civilian population, assault on protected infrastructure such as hospitals.

IDF combat helicopter targeting Hamas fighters at Nova festival massacre shot some partygoers by mistake, says Haaretz

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Killing people is wrong. Rape is wrong. Sexual assault is wrong. Sexual assault is routinely practiced by Shin Bet when interrogating female detainees as part of the stress process (which also involves a variety of other physical stresses).

Have you got a link for this? I've done a search, and can't find anything to support this.
Thanks.

 

[Planigale]

Israel has bigger fish to fry than dwelling too much on the details of who/what/where of al-Shifa medical facility.
It's really not very important at this late stage. The IDF is releasing videos and info regarding what they've found, OK, fine, let's move on.

By the way, there was never a claim about 40 beheaded children. There were 40 children found dead, some (or even one) of whom were without their skulls attached to their shoulders.
Again, in the Grand Scheme of Things, let's see everyone moving towards International efforts that result in the total conclusion of this war. (i.e. -- seeing Hadar Goldin's and Oren Shaul's partial-cadavers returned, along with all other bodies that Hamas knows the whereabouts of).

If they don't know, then just say "we lost 'em, in the melee" and we'll work with that, somehow.

From your post on the other thread:

People have very short memories.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...non-camp/7f27b1be-a436-449a-8ca5-1e86f4a3f211

(1996) Reading this story, there's a sense of deja-Vu.

"We don't want to see any woman, or child or Lebanese civilian killed, but they are the victims of Hezbollah," Shimon Peres told reporters.

From your reference,

"There were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."

Does this mean the IDF beheads babies?

From NBC

Unverified reports of ‘40 babies beheaded’ in Israel-Hamas war inflame social media

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/intern...es-israel-hamas-war-inflame-social-rcna119902

So certainly there were claims about forty babies beheaded.

Also when will Israel return the bodies of the 18 children killed by IDF whose bodies they have 'confiscated'?

Israeli forces have withheld the bodies of at least 21 Palestinian children since June 2016, according to documentation collected by DCIP. Three of the children’s bodies have since been released to their families, while 18 Palestinian children’s bodies remain withheld by Israeli authorities.

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israe...16_year_old_palestinian_boy_in_east_jerusalem

Israeli authorities’ practice of confiscating and withholding Palestinian bodies is a violation of international humanitarian law and international human rights law, which include absolute prohibitions on cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, as well as stipulate that parties of an armed conflict must bury the deceased in an honorable way. For families, the practice amounts to collective punishment in violation of international humanitarian law.

In September 2019, the Israeli Supreme Court approved the practice of confiscating human remains after several legal challenges to the policy. On November 27, 2019, Israeli Defense Minister Naftali Bennett ordered all bodies of Palestinians alleged to have attacked Israeli citizens or soldiers to be withheld and not returned to their families. Israel is the only country in the world with such a policy of confiscating human remains, according to Adalah.

So why should Palestinians return the bodies of IDF members when it is official Israeli policy to conficate the bodies of Palestinians?

 

[Leumas]

Israel has bigger fish to fry than dwelling too much on the details of who/what/where of al-Shifa medical facility.
It's really not very important at this late stage. The IDF is releasing videos and info regarding what they've found, OK, fine, let's move on.

So when the propaganda lies are exposed for the perfidious lies they are... the lies ought to be forgotten and we move on???

Are we meant to forget that those lies were EXPLOITED TO GENOCIDE 12,000 people?

So when the propagated lies are repeatedly shouted out loud on the media and by the PRESIDENT of the USA to justify giving 36 BILLION$$$ in WMDs to Israel to GENOCIDE 12,000 civilians... it is important and must be repeated and not forgotten.

But when the lies are exposed as heinous lies... ah. well.. it is not important now that we have the BILLION$$$$ already spent on GENOCIDING and let's just move on TO ETHNIC CLEANSING the remaining "survivors" of the genocide???

By the way, there was never a claim about 40 beheaded children.

Yes there was and even Biden the PRESIDENT OF THE USA repeated it on the news.

And here is a New York Post report.

And here is an NBC report

And here is this report

Despite international journalists and news agencies debunking allegations that Palestinian resistance group Hamas "beheaded babies" in Israel, the claim continued to make headlines on Wednesday in Israeli and Western media, receiving millions of social media views.

....
Israeli news channel i24 alleged on Tuesday morning that the Al-Qassam Brigades, "beheaded many Israeli babies" during an early-Saturday attack from the Gaza Strip.

...

He added that Israel uses false claims to intensify the bombing of Gaza and to "justify its war crimes."
Failure of British press

Almost a dozen British newspapers — including The Times, Metro, The i, Daily Express, The Scotsman, and Financial Times — have run stories on their front pages Wednesday, citing the i24 claims.
...

i24 enjoys close ties with Netanyahu, military
Israeli newspaper Haaretz previously reported that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who was indicted on several corruption charges, has leveraged the issuance of a broadcasting license to i24 in exchange for favorable coverage.

...

The original story was based on a report by i24NEWS correspondent Nicole Zedek, who reported from Kfar Aza.

"She also stated on X that some babies heads had been cut off. However, those reports, which came from an IDF soldier(s), have in some cases morphed and gone viral," Jones said.

"Some outlets are reporting '40 babies killed', or '40 babies beheaded', while some are reporting '40 babies killed, some beheaded'. Neither the 40 babies being killed and/or beheaded has been independently verified."

...

 

[Leumas]

Have you got a link for this? I've done a search, and can't find anything to support this.
Thanks.

I suggest you read this report from the USA BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND LABOR

...
The government acknowledged it used “exceptional measures” during interrogation in some cases, but the Ministry of Justice refused to provide information regarding the number of such “necessity” interrogations or which “exceptional measures” were used. According to PCATI, if confirmed, these measures might constitute torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment, as they included beatings, forcing an individual to hold a stress position for long periods, incommunicado detention, sexual harassment, threats of rape and physical harm, painful pressure from shackles or restraints applied to the forearms, religion-based humiliation, sleep deprivation, exposure to extreme heat and cold, and threats against families of detainees. In addition, PCATI argues one prevailing form of torture and ill treatment is Shin Bet’s holding of detainees in interrogation facilities with poor living conditions, in cells reported as filthy, insect-infested, lacking adequate food and water, unsanitary, lighting on 24/7, and extreme hot or cold temperatures applied.

....

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I suggest you read this report from the USA BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND LABOR

That report does not corroborate planigale's claim.
Unconfirmed reports of what might have happened, which might include sexual harrasment, not sexual assault- which was the claim- are not proof.
That Shin Bet are nasty bastards is not really in any doubt, and I am not condoning the use of torture or rape on prisoners. I just want to be able to distinguish between exaggerated propaganda and actual fact.
So, any other links? planigale seemed very certain of this, so there must be something out there to support it. As I say, I've looked, but can't find anything.

 

[Leumas]

That report does not corroborate planigale's claim.
Unconfirmed reports of what might have happened, which might include sexual harrasment, not sexual assault- which was the claim- are not proof.
That Shin Bet are nasty bastards is not really in any doubt, and I am not condoning the use of torture or rape on prisoners. I just want to be able to distinguish between exaggerated propaganda and actual fact.
So, any other links? planigale seemed very certain of this, so there must be something out there to support it. As I say, I've looked, but can't find anything.

Read the bloody report... you very evidently have not read it.

 

[Nessie]

https://twitter.com/blackintheempir/status/1726407275051364783

"The US saw killing Native Americans as ok because they were savages

They saw nothing wrong with slavery, because Africans weren't human

They see nothing wrong with the Monroe Doctrine, because killing and stealing in this area is ok

They see nothing wrong with Apartheid Israel"

 

[Leumas]

https://twitter.com/blackintheempir/status/1726407275051364783

"The US saw killing Native Americans as ok because they were savages

They saw nothing wrong with slavery, because Africans weren't human

They see nothing wrong with the Monroe Doctrine, because killing and stealing in this area is ok

They see nothing wrong with Apartheid Israel"

Nor do they see anything wrong with the relentless and incessant Genocide and Ethnic cleansing that has been done repeatedly for the last 75 years... SEVENTY FIVE YEARS of repeated Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide and atrocities and humiliation and torment... SEVENTY FIVE YEARS of inhumanity.

Here watch this interview that will clearly explain this...

 

[webfusion]

Anti-Israel protests are disrupting lives everywhere.

Apparently, the idea is to create an atmosphere worldwide of anger, not at the protestors who are rampaging, but at Jews.

And it's working.

 

[Nessie]

Anti-Israel protests are disrupting lives everywhere.

Apparently, the idea is to create an atmosphere worldwide of anger, not at the protestors who are rampaging, but at Jews.

And it's working.

I think it is the Jews who are creating an atmosphere of anger against Jews, because of the revenge they are presently inflicting on Palestinians. It is excessive.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

It is hard not to see a strategy by the Israeli leadership of deliberately endangering Jews, both at home and abroad, in the hopes that an attack will justify whatever Netanyahu wants to do.