How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas?

[sackett]

Regarding WW2 analogies, perhaps HamHandedAss is better compared to Japan. Here was a weak nation with few resources, controlled by meathead fanatics who thought death was SO romantic, and who imagined that War Shinto gave them (and the browbeaten masses they controlled) a power that lesser races couldn't match no matter what. They believed so devoutly and so stubbornly that it took two nukes to change their minds.

Not a precise analogy, but look how much more rationally the Italians came to view their situation.

 

[Planigale]

No, it's not. The IRA never called for genocide. Hamas does. The IRA never put such a call (which, again, then never made) into practice. Hamas does. The Nazis gained power that Hamas can only dream of, but their goals are remarkably similar. The IRA's were not.



You think the precise method of execution is what matters? What kind of lunacy is that?

And invading Israel and rounding up Jews to kill is EXACTLY what we just saw. And why would they invade Egypt or Jordan for that? There's almost no Jews to be found there.



Quite the contrary. Hamas works to ensure collateral damage, which is part of why it must be destroyed completely. You know how you ensure human shields get used? By letting the tactic work. In the long run, that doesn't protect people, it actually maximizes harm. The collateral damage being done now sucks, I wish there was another way, but Hamas has made sure there isn't. And the only way to stop it is to destroy Hamas. But Hamas is responsible for that, not Israel.



Again, you have that backwards. The only way to free Palestinians who don't want Hamas from Hamas is to destroy Hamas. Letting their human shield tactics work just guarantees that those human shields will remain forever under Hamas's boot. And you manifestly do not care about that.



It wouldn't have been if we kept calling for cease fires to protect civilians. Want to know why France doesn't hold a grudge against the USA and the UK for bombing French cities in WW2, killing French civilians? Because they understood it was a necessity to get rid of the Nazis.

Want to know why the Nazis weren't replaced by other men of violence in Germany? Because they were thoroughly destroyed, and our victory over them was complete, not half-assed.

Hamas statement of principles 2017 makes it clear that they want an end to the Zionist state but not Jewish people. The genocidal ideology has been left behind. They also implicitly accept a two state solution.

Nazis were racists, Islamists are the opposite of racist.

We are not exactly sure what happened on 7 October (this does not justify terrorism), but we do know only 0.03% of those killed by Hamas (+/- other Islamist groups) were children, we do know 40% of those being killed by the IDF are children. We do know >25% of those killed on 7 October were active service military, my guess is a much smaller proportion of those killed by the IDF in Gaza are Hamas activists. Many of those active service military were police and reservist Kibbutz security who live on the Kibbutz, amongst the people (but we cannot say that because they live in normal houses like normal people that the neighbours were human shields). We do know that whilst Hamas are morally and legally responsible for all the deaths that occurred some were definitely blue on blue, Israelis killed by the IDF in defeating the Hamas attack.

To be clear this is not to defend the terrorism of Hamas the attack on the 7 October was clearly a horrendous crime. We do know some stories like the beheading of children seems to have been propaganda. Hamas should be vilified for what they did do, not for the imaginings of others.

If you imagine the French didn't bare a grudge for the damage done to france by the British (and Americans) you do not know the French. If you think all the Nazis were removed in Germany you do not know post WW2 history. Many remained in positions of authority, but what happened is that they were not occupied by an army committed to ethnic cleansing but with a clear post war plan on producing an independent and self-governing country. That is the fundamental difference. Israel wants to clear out the Palestinians (see constant posts from webfusion on this) and take over the land.

What Hamas did on 7 October was unjustifiable criminality. That does not justify the crimes against humanity and war crimes being committed by the Israeli government. My guess is like many soldiers the IDF are more humane than their commanders, I suspect that they may be sharing water with patients in the occupied Hospitals which have run out of water. I suspect the offer of 300L of fuel to power the hospital was from the soldiers on the ground sharing what they could and not from the Israeli government. My guess is many will not be happy to be watching babies die from starvation, cold, thirst.

 

[Planigale]

Regarding WW2 analogies, perhaps HamHandedAss is better compared to Japan. Here was a weak nation with few resources, controlled by meathead fanatics who thought death was SO romantic, and who imagined that War Shinto gave them (and the browbeaten masses they controlled) a power that lesser races couldn't match no matter what. They believed so devoutly and so stubbornly that it took two nukes to change their minds.

Not a precise analogy, but look how much more rationally the Italians came to view their situation.

However the fundamental difference is that the occupiers had a plan of how to reconstitute an indendant nation post war. Israel does not want an independant Palestinian state no matter how democratic and liberal. Fundamentally (see posts by Web Fusion) Israel wants to push Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank in to Egypt and jordan respectively (although Israel would be happy for any other countries to take the displaced ethnically cleansed Palestinians.

ETA
Also very few of the war criminals were executed, most were allowed to get on with their lives.

 

[Ziggurat]

Hamas statement of principles 2017 makes it clear that they want an end to the Zionist state but not Jewish people. The genocidal ideology has been left behind.

Their actions on Oct. 7 show otherwise.

Nazis were racists, Islamists are the opposite of racist.

That's not a difference which actually matters. And there's a good argument to be made that the Nazis were racist as a result of their antisemitism, not the other way around.

We are not exactly sure what happened on 7 October (this does not justify terrorism), but we do know only 0.03% of those killed by Hamas (+/- other Islamist groups) were children

Your math is off.

we do know 40% of those being killed by the IDF are children.

That's what happens when you use children as human shields.

If you imagine the French didn't bare a grudge for the damage done to france by the British (and Americans) you do not know the French. If you think all the Nazis were removed in Germany you do not know post WW2 history.

I'm sure they weren't all removed. But the Nazis as an organization with influence in Germany was successfully destroyed.

Many remained in positions of authority, but what happened is that they were not occupied by an army committed to ethnic cleansing but with a clear post war plan on producing an independent and self-governing country.

No they weren't. They were occupied by an army with a clear plan to defeat them. The post war plan was developed post war.

Plus, there was a **** ton of ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2.

What Hamas did on 7 October was unjustifiable criminality. That does not justify the crimes against humanity and war crimes being committed by the Israeli government.

Most of what you call "war crimes" is just war. War is nasty and brutal and terrible. It is to be avoided when possible. But Hamas made it unavoidable, not Israel. I will not blame Israel for waging war in response to war waged against them. You are.

My guess is like many soldiers the IDF are more humane than their commanders

I have no reason to trust your uninformed guesses.

 

[webfusion]

planigale posts -- Israel does not want an independant Palestinian state no matter how democratic and liberal. Fundamentally (see posts by Web Fusion) Israel wants to push Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank in to Egypt and jordan respectively (although Israel would be happy for any other countries to take the displaced ethnically cleansed Palestinians.

About half of the population of Israel certainly would be satisfied to see a NewState of Palestine that's democratic and liberal, and demilitarized (Islamic Jihadists neutralized).

Fundamentally, what I've been posting does not envision "pushing" Palestinians out of Gaza (nor the Westbank) into Egypt or Jordan. The entire idea I've been mentioning involves the opposite, actually.
Provide a refuge for the refugees. Their own State to call home.
Jordan has Palestinian refugees, as does Lebanon, Syria, and of course, Gaza.
Making a salient of N. Sinai available for PalestinianState development is fundamentally reunifying the Historical Palestinian lands in that sector. Gaza right now requires a substantial effort to reconstruct.
Israel would be happy for other countries to provide assistance towards that end.
Israel does not appear to be interested in displacing and/or ethnically-cleansing Palestinians from Gaza, and no genocide upon them is contemplated.

 

[lionking]

planigale posts -- Israel does not want an independant Palestinian state no matter how democratic and liberal. Fundamentally (see posts by Web Fusion) Israel wants to push Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank in to Egypt and jordan respectively (although Israel would be happy for any other countries to take the displaced ethnically cleansed Palestinians.

About half of the population of Israel certainly would be satisfied to see a NewState of Palestine that's democratic and liberal, and demilitarized (Islamic Jihadists neutralized).

Fundamentally, what I've been posting does not envision "pushing" Palestinians out of Gaza (nor the Westbank) into Egypt or Jordan. The entire idea I've been mentioning involves the opposite, actually.
Provide a refuge for the refugees. Their own State to call home.
Jordan has Palestinian refugees, as does Lebanon, Syria, and of course, Gaza.
Making a salient of N. Sinai available for PalestinianState development is fundamentally reunifying the Historical Palestinian lands in that sector. Gaza right now requires a substantial effort to reconstruct.
Israel would be happy for other countries to provide assistance towards that end.
Israel does not appear to be interested in displacing and/or ethnically-cleansing Palestinians from Gaza, and no genocide upon them is contemplated.

This is far too rational for fanatical Israel haters, I’m sad to say.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

This is far too rational for fanatical Israel haters, I’m sad to say.

You're missing the part in his scheme where Israel ethnically cleanses the West Bank instead. Give it a repetition or two, it'll come up.

 

[webfusion]

You're missing the part in his scheme where Israel ethnically cleanses the West Bank instead. Give it a repetition or two, it'll come up.

You're missing the part where the Palestinian refugees who now are in Westbank & E.Jerusalem get a chance to move into the Palestine NewState, and call it home. As refugees, they've been demanding a State that's theirs (and is Judenrein, to boot). Nowhere is it decreed from on high that Westbank is theirs.

To move, voluntarily, as a function of the International Community stepping up to solve their intractable problem by setting aside a chunk of Historical Palestinian land, is not 'ethnic cleansing' nor is it somehow a failure of them getting a proper resolution to their angst.

Westbank is going to retain a portion of Palestinian population. That's a given.
The question will be, who wants to stay and live with Israel as the sovereign entity, and who wants to re-establish their lives into the NewState, and be granted all the rights and responsibilities of being a member of the community of nations?

This war has done one important thing.
It's proven to Israelis of all persuasions that Westbank becoming an Islamic Jihadist base (which it has been turning into) cannot be allowed to happen.

Now, let's look into other alternatives, and stop repeating the same decades-old demands that aren't worth repeating. This is the one chance to fix the Palestinian refugee issue. UNRWA is toast. They are a part of the problem, not a part of the resolution of it.

Barry Shaw -- "The fifty-year record of Palestinianism is awful and reached a bloody crescendo on 7 October 2023.
This was the day that the world should have come to its senses and said, “No more!”
The two-state demand that includes westbank died that day as we saw the ultimate aims of the much-vaunted Palestinian "resistance"

 

[Nessie]

Both analogies are far off the mark re the middle east.

The best way to achieve peace in Gaza is to eliminate Hamas as an effective entity. Peaceful Palestinians will remain peaceful. Whether they are grateful has no bearing.

Peaceful Palestinians, who have suffered terribly under the Israeli attacks, will support a new version of Hamas, to replace the destroyed version.

 

[Nessie]

I think the analogy is quite apt in a way. The Allies in the spring of 1945 didn't really give a **** how grateful the Germans would be for ending Nazi rule, just as Israeli's currently don't give a **** how grateful Palestinians will be. Its totally unfair to peaceful Palestinians living in Gaza right now just as it was totally unfair to peaceful Germans who actually hated Hitler. This is the world as it is. Its not a fair one.

The Germans after WWII could see a better future without the Nazis. What are the prospects for Palestinians, after Hamas have been defeated? Will they see a bright future of a Palestinian nation that is prosperous and free from Israeli influence and intervention?

 

[Nessie]

Peace through victory is the historical norm.

When a nation fights a terrorist organisation, stalemate and a realisation negotiation is needed, is one of the outcomes. Another is the success of the terrorist organisation, especially when it also has a political arm.

Negotiated peace without victory is the oddity. The preconditions necessary for negotiated peace in NI don't exist with Israel/Palestine. No comparison is perfect, but Hamas is far more like the Nazi party in ideology than it is like the IRA.

The men of violence have control and Israel and Palestine are doomed to a violent future.

 

[webfusion]

nessie -- "Will they see a bright future of a Palestinian nation that is prosperous and free from Israeli influence and intervention? "

You're kidding around now, right?

I've provided numerous posts which outlined exactly that prosperous future. At best, they'll have a micro-nation (Nation-State) in Gaza and a salient of n.Sinai. Egypt & Israel will provide security (at tremendous costs, much of which will be borne by American taxpayers). Under no circumstances will Gaza be permitted to once again militarize.

"free from" Israeli influence and intervention? Isn't that what they're demanding? FreePalestine is their mantra. Israel has well-developed commerce and industry. Why wouldn't the NewState take advantage of that expertise and cooperate at all levels? ( Just as an aside, one of the people kidnapped by Hamas was a young man from Tanzania. He was in Israel to study and educate himself on the agro-tech and water farming that Israel excels at. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tanzania-intern-taken-by-hamas-in-israel-dead-clemence-felix-mtenga )

Intervention? I dare those islamic-jihadists to raise their stinkin' heads again and cause trouble for Israel.

 

[webfusion]

Peaceful Palestinians, who have suffered terribly under the Israeli attacks, will support a new version of Hamas, to replace the destroyed version.

I doubt it.

 

[Steve]

The Germans after WWII could see a better future without the Nazis. What are the prospects for Palestinians, after Hamas have been defeated? Will they see a bright future of a Palestinian nation that is prosperous and free from Israeli influence and intervention?

The complete highlight remains to be seen. They should certainly see a better future without Hamas, initially at least with many, many fewer civilian deaths due to Hamas instigated violence. There would continue to be Israeli influence and intervention for a number of years just as there was allied intervention and influence in Germany, without which the post war recovery of Germany would have taken a whole lot longer. The allies had the sense to realize that a recovered, self sufficient and prosperous Germany would be a benefit to the world. The Israeli government has the same sense re Gaza and Palestine in general. The wild card is what the very brainwashed Palestinian population will realize.

 

[Steve]

Peaceful Palestinians, who have suffered terribly under the Israeli attacks, will support a new version of Hamas, to replace the destroyed version.

Using your favorite analogy - just as the peaceful post-war Germans supported a new version of Naziism. right?

 

[webfusion]

Regarding the Al-Shifa hospital revelations --

I looked at the videos being released by the media (they were given a tour of the facility).
One thing really struck me about the light weaponry that was shown.
The amount (not much) and the condition (dirty) and the ordnance all appear to be the types of things which would be part of the fighters' personal combat gear carried into battle. Vests, extra magazines, hand grenades, radios, binoculars, etc.
The hospital was involved with treating armed Hamas injured. My spidey-tingly senses tell me that those weapons were brought into the hospital by these men, and they died while there, so the hospital staff just stored them away in some locked storage rooms.
I would bet the hospital just took them off the incoming dead guys, and that's what we are seeing.

 

[Nessie]

Using your favorite analogy - just as the peaceful post-war Germans supported a new version of Naziism. right?

There was a specific policy to allow Germany to prosper after WWII, after the post WWI policy of repression failed. Palestinians will be treated closer to Germans after WWI, than WWII.

 

[Nessie]

The complete highlight remains to be seen. They should certainly see a better future without Hamas, initially at least with many, many fewer civilian deaths due to Hamas instigated violence. There would continue to be Israeli influence and intervention for a number of years just as there was allied intervention and influence in Germany, without which the post war recovery of Germany would have taken a whole lot longer. The allies had the sense to realize that a recovered, self sufficient and prosperous Germany would be a benefit to the world. The Israeli government has the same sense re Gaza and Palestine in general. The wild card is what the very brainwashed Palestinian population will realize.

Gazans will look at what is happening on the West Bank as their most likely post Hamas future. With Hamas in power in Gaza, Israel setters are too fearful to force Palestinians out of the homes.

 

[Nessie]

Regarding the Al-Shifa hospital revelations --

I looked at the videos being released by the media (they were given a tour of the facility).
One thing really struck me about the light weaponry that was shown.
The amount (not much) and the condition (dirty) and the ordnance all appear to be the types of things which would be part of the fighters' personal combat gear carried into battle. Vests, extra magazines, hand grenades, radios, binoculars, etc.
The hospital was involved with treating armed Hamas injured. My spidey-tingly senses tell me that those weapons were brought into the hospital by these men, and they died while there, so the hospital staff just stored them away in some locked storage rooms.
I would bet the hospital just took them off the incoming dead guys, and that's what we are seeing.

Agreed. Israeli claims have again proved to be unreliable. It is one of the reasons why, internationally, support for Israel is haemorrhaging. Hamas are losing the war in Gaza, but they will be quite happy with its success internationally.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Gazans will look at what is happening on the West Bank as their most likely post Hamas future. With Hamas in power in Gaza, Israel setters are too fearful to force Palestinians out of the homes.

Israel removed its settlers from Gaza when it pulled out of that area. What makes you think they will reoccupy once this bout of fighting is over? Bear in mind that Netanyahu has explicitly said that Israel will not reoccupy Gaza.

I think it might be useful for you to consider how Israelis feel about their future too. They withdrew from Gaza, and watched as Hamas ousted Fatah, seized control, and used Gaza as a launching pad for thousands upon thousands of rockets, fired indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel, as well as attacking Egypt. From an Israeli perspective, a Palestinian area left to govern itself is a clear and present danger to Israel and Israelis. That they have said they will not reoccupy is a testament to their willingness to give the Palestinians a chance to sort their **** out, and form a government that isn't composed of fanatical terrorists.