Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

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Vixen said:
But don't you see, you are not believing your own eyes. The CCTV image clearly depicts what looks like a classic lithium fire (orange, red flames shooting out with grey smoke) and not a diesel one (thick billowing black clouds). In addition, were the car a completely conventional derv it would not self combust like that. Even if it was an unexpected electrical fault (which to be fair would not be surprising in a Range Rover model, if that is what it was, given its recent history of recall), the Fire Brigade, which arrived in eight minutes (verified fact) should have had no problem in putting it out, even if it had spread to one or more other cars. So definitely more probably a mild hybrid for it to become so intense and uncontrollable within minutes, two empty fire extinguishers as evidence of this.

Hopkinson's statement was obviously one of 'reassuring the public' (i.e., let's not panic about EV's, arson or terrorism) and reassure the public that 'we do not believe it was an EV. It is believed to be accidental and a diesel at this stage, subject to verification'.

Note the gag in naming the model and make or even the driver.
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It was confirmed several weeks ago by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car.

You are just trolling now.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I reject your simplistic and completely inexpert diagnosis.
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Ask yourself why the CCTV camera lead up to the fire and the continuation ahve not been shown. It was thought that six months down the line people will have forgotten all about it. Buried on page 5. Likewise, you have not been told the make and model as that would be a dead give away and we can't have Tata's 1m sq foot gigafactory for lithium batteries plan undermined, can we...?
 
GlennB said:
<snip potty mouth>. It was on the 3rd level and close to many other cars.

We've already established that a fire engine couldn't drive in there, leaving the only routes to the fire being up staircases or via a 'cherry-picker' type platform from the outside. How long do you think that kind of operation takes to set up, even if it enables good access to the fire?

Once again, please do review that video of an American fire crew attending a car fire in the open air, in daytime, with very easy access. It takes several minutes to get in position and deploy hoses before beginning the actual fire fighting.

Do stop talking <snip ditto>

Caveat emptor
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What are these things then?


https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/...5-2002-range-rover-carmichael-fire-engine-jg/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/5790687/hydraulic-platforms-up-to-56-meters-north-fire

Clue: spot how a Range Rover can be a fire engine.
 
Thermal said:
This is silly. Fires are not nearly so predictable. When I was on my township's rescue squad, we saw everything from sustained burning for a half hour to sudden explosions when there was no evident fire. You just don't know. Eight to fifteen minutes for containment are average times, not some kind of absolute.



Good suggestion, but this thread would not exist if you heeded it.
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Oh wow, you are a fireman? Hence your handle? Cool.
 
Vixen said:
Ask yourself why the CCTV camera lead up to the fire and the continuation ahve not been shown.
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<thinks> Shown by whom? Who would have considered it sufficiently newsworthy to seek it out and put it online?

People will click on a 20 second video of a blazing car but after that they'll click on the next thing. Your frustration at not being able freely to Google any and all CCTV footage at will is not evidence of a conspiracy to thwart you or your fellow armchair detectives.
 
Vixen said:
What are these things then?

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/...5-2002-range-rover-carmichael-fire-engine-jg/
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Does Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service have one of these? Was one despatched to the Luton car park fire? Would it be any good for tackling a large scale fire?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant
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That's a lovely picture of a US fire hydrant. Were any of those available inside (or even outside) the Luton airport car park?

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/5790687/hydraulic-platforms-up-to-56-meters-north-fire
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Does Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service have one of these? Was one despatched to the Luton car park fire? If so, was it sent straight away?
 
Vixen said:
JUDGE: <fx bangs gavel> Send this man down for contempt of court.


<fx Jack by the hedge unceremoniously ejected>
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Gavel? "This is not Perry Mason."

Anyway. this is not contempt of court, it's contempt of your trivially false assertion that diesel cars do not catch fire. Shall I repost that list of vehicle fires from the London fire service?
 
Vixen said:
Oh wow, you are a fireman? Hence your handle? Cool.
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Nope. I was on volunteer Rescue before moving to a town with a paid department. We did bodies, firemen did the squirts. My handle refers to a rising column of air, important to other pastimes.

But as the first of the first responders, I can assure you there is little predictable about fires. **** is cray cray, to use the technical terminology.
 
Disbelief said:
What in your accountant training allows you to make these declarative statements? I notice you never offered proof of battery location in a Land Rover hybrid, but I never really expected that.
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My professional standards holds me to protect my objectivity and in the context of being a layman, being easily persuaded by a tabloid news headline would fall under the heading of 'threat to objectivity' the clever headline that misleads. For example: 'LA Fire was Arson' as reported all over the US, when what Gov Newsom actually said was 'at this preliminary stage'. So, objectivity is important. When reading a website, you have to be aware of (a) what is the purpose of this website, what is it wanting to communicate? and (b) the source of the information conveyed: is it a 'Plain English' version of something a lot more complicated; is a source credited and (c) am I looking for information, eg., 'what does Beds Fire and Rescue do?' or 'Interesting facts about Beds Fire and Rescue' or even, 'About us, Fun Facts, Meet Our People!' or (d) News.

You might be aware that in the US there is a difference delineated between what is classed as 'news' and what is a 'magazine'. In the USA, tabloids, such as the DAILY HORROR MAIL would be classed as 'magazines' so borderline is their news content. In the UK, outlets wanting to call themselves 'news broadcasters' have to demonstrate impartiality and a standard of fact checking against fake news. Hence, you will always see the BBC providing the proper quoted source and not a ham-fisted 'Gotcha!' style junk to catch the reader's eye. As a recent example, the SUN had a headline, 'BRAVERMAN WILL JAIL HATE DEMONSTRATORS' (or similar) but she doesn't actually have that power thus was a typical misleading subeditor's headline. You need to be aware that if you are looking for 'information' on whether it is safe to leave your car at a car park, then Beds Fire and Rescue webpage will reassure you that the fire at Luton was a diesel, because the aim is not to let you know how the Fire and Police investigation is coming along but to convey a belief, as initially expressed by Fire Chief Hopkinson. If you want actual news on how the investigation is progressing: bad luck! All you have is the preliminary press statement as there is a gag until the investigation is concluded. News outlets cannot even discuss the driver as he has been arrested so that is potentially subjudice so newspaper lawyers would block attempt to publicise any information about him or interviews.

AIUI the Land Rover Evoque does have a mild hybrid battery under the left passenger seat which is where the flames in the CCTV image appear to be emanating.

Bear in mind that UK cars, unlike in Europe and the USA, have a right hand drive as it still drives on the left hand side of the road.
 
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Vixen said:
You address a judge as 'Sir', 'Madam' or 'M'Lud'. This is not Perry Mason.
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Shockingly, this is wrong.

"Senior Judges are addressed as My Lord or My Lady
Circuit Judges are addressed as Your Honour.
High Court registrars should be addressed as Registrar .
Lay magistrates should still be addressed as*Sir or Madam and have been addressed as Your Worships as usually 3 lay magistrates sit together with their Legal Advisor."
https://www.ibblaw.co.uk/insights/c...ddressed as,together with their Legal Advisor.
 
Vixen said:
My professional standards holds me to protect my objectivity and in the context of being a layman, being easily persuaded by a tabloid news headline would fall under the heading of 'threat to objectivity'
[...]
AIUI the Land Rover Evoque does have a mild hybrid battery under the left passenger seat
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Were you 'easily persuaded' by some bloke on Twitter who reckons the hybrid battery fits under the passenger seat?
 
Vixen said:
My professional standards holds me to protect my objectivity and in the context of being a layman, being easily persuaded by a tabloid news headline would fall under the heading of 'threat to objectivity' the clever headline that misleads. For example: 'LA Fire was Arson' as reported all over the US, when what Gov Newsom actually said was 'at this preliminary stage'. So, objectivity is important. When reading a website, you have to be aware of (a) what is the purpose of this website, what is it wanting to communicate? and (b) the source of the information conveyed: is it a 'Plain English' version of something a lot more complicated; is a source credited and (c) am I looking for information, eg., 'what does Beds Fire and Rescue do?' or 'Interesting facts about Beds Fire and Rescue' or even, 'About us, Fun Facts, Meet Our People!' or (d) News.

You might be aware that in the US there is a difference delineated between what is classed as 'news' and what is a 'magazine'. In the USA, tabloids, such as the DAILY HORROR MAIL would be classed as 'magazines' so borderline is their news content. In the UK, outlets wanting to call themselves 'news broadcasters' have to demonstrate impartiality and a standard of fact checking against fake news. Hence, you will always see the BBC providing the proper quoted source and not a ham-fisted 'Gotcha!' style junk to catch the reader's eye. As a recent example, the SUN had a headline, 'BRAVERMAN WILL JAIL HATE DEMONSTRATORS' (or similar) but she doesn't actually have that power thus was a typical misleading subeditor's headline. You need to be aware that if you are looking for 'information' on whether it is safe to leave your car at a car park, then Beds Fire and Rescue webpage will reassure you that the fire at Luton was a diesel, because the aim is not to let you know how the Fire and Police investigation is coming along but to convey a belief, as initially expressed by Fire Chief Hopkinson. If you want actual news on how the investigation is progressing: bad luck! All you have is the preliminary press statement as there is a gag until the investigation is concluded. News outlets cannot even discuss the driver as he has been arrested so that is potentially subjudice so newspaper lawyers would block attempt to publicise any information about him or interviews.

AIUI the Land Rover Evoque does have a mild hybrid battery under the left passenger seat which is where the flames in the CCTV image appear to be emanating.

Bear in mind that UK cars, unlike in Europe and the USA, have a right hand drive as it still drives on the left hand side of the road.
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A lot of words to say that there is nothing in your training that gives you any expertise on this, it's all conjecture. You make claims and expect us to take them at face value, yet no expertise for us to take you seriously.

Bolding mine I notice you changed your story. You first stated that the fire was from the front left in the motor compartment, now you claim that it was in the left middle. I know where the batteries are located, because I'm the one who mentioned it in this thread after you claimed front left.

As for knowing that UK has RHD cars, I work in the industry and have dealt with this for a long time. Considering we ship cars to multiple countries, I am sure I know a bit more about requirements in the various regions.
 
Disbelief said:
A lot of words to say that there is nothing in your training that gives you any expertise on this, it's all conjecture. You make claims and expect us to take them at face value, yet no expertise for us to take you seriously.

Bolding mine I notice you changed your story. You first stated that the fire was from the front left in the motor compartment, now you claim that it was in the left middle. I know where the batteries are located, because I'm the one who mentioned it in this thread after you claimed front left.

As for knowing that UK has RHD cars, I work in the industry and have dealt with this for a long time. Considering we ship cars to multiple countries, I am sure I know a bit more about requirements in the various regions.
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Below front left passenger is where the flames emanate from.
 
Vixen said:
Secondary source subeditors and people like yourself looking for a pithy soundbite, disguised as 'information'.
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No. The official written statement of the responsible authority is not a secondary source.

I will await the report when the investigation has concluded and not before.
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Is it your position that no facts can be known or reported until some kind of final report?

In other cases you have explicitly dismissed final reports in favor of early, unreliable media sources and "guys on the internet."

A good judge and jury does not come to a verdict until he or she has heard ALL of the evidence placed before the court, in this case an investigation.
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Is it your position that no facts can be known or reliability reported until the final report of an investigative body?
 
Vixen said:
Ask yourself why the CCTV camera lead up to the fire and the continuation ahve not been shown. It was thought that six months down the line people will have forgotten all about it. Buried on page 5. Likewise, you have not been told the make and model as that would be a dead give away and we can't have Tata's 1m sq foot gigafactory for lithium batteries plan undermined, can we...?
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Ut has been confirmed by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car
 
Vixen said:
Below front left passenger is where the flames emanate from.
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Yet this is what you said before:

Vixen said:
The fire in the photograph appears to be confined to the front left of the car and towards the lower part. There is no smoke coming from the engine at the front or the fuel tank at the rear. The flames are orange and red with the grey smoke that is a classic of a lithium-ion fire. The driver was unable to extinguish it with a couple of fire extinguishers which would normally do the job, or failing that by the fire brigade who arrived very promptly - 'within eight minutes'.
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Which is different from under the front passenger seat. You do realize there is a lot of car in front of the passenger. Also, you claim to know about the battery location, but you don't seem to realize that different models have them in different locations. Instead of saying you AIUI about the battery location, how about you actually look it up and source it.

ETA: And as Andy Ross so elegantly put it, The Fire Service confirmed it was a diesel car.
 
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Vixen said:
The CCTV image clearly depicts what looks like a classic lithium fire...
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No, you're not competent to make that determination.

So definitely more probably...
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No. Vixensplaining is not a substitute for fact. The facts have been observed and reliability reported. You simply wish to believe differently.

It is believed to be accidental and a diesel at this stage, subject to verification.
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It has been verified. You simply choose not to believe that it has.

Note the gag in naming the model and make or even the driver.
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Straw man.
 
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