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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

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Upchurch said:
I don't know why I'm poking the dead horse, but this thread is about transwomen in women's sports being an unfair advantage and not simply transphobia, right?

How does that relate to this story?

(For those who don't want to go onto twitter, and I don't blame you, a ciswoman refused to play against a transwoman in the finals of a pool tournament. Because it's twitter, most of the comments praised the ciswoman. When a few people asked what physical advantage a transwoman has over a ciswoman, they were either laughed at or told it was a matter of principle.)

Is it a matter of unfair advantage or is it a matter of principle? If it is a matter of principle, what is that principle?
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It's not obvious to me that men generally have a physical advantage over women in pool, and as such I'm open to the idea that there should just be a general open division rather than segregating by sex in this particular case.

On the other hand it's not entirely obvious that no such advantage exists, I'm also open to the idea that someone could make that case.

Some might make a different case here (similar to the one that is made in favor of women's titles in chess), but I'm not the one to do so.
 
Upchurch said:
I don't know why I'm poking the dead horse, but this thread is about transwomen in women's sports being an unfair advantage and not simply transphobia, right?

How does that relate to this story?

(For those who don't want to go onto twitter, and I don't blame you, a ciswoman refused to play against a transwoman in the finals of a pool tournament. Because it's twitter, most of the comments praised the ciswoman. When a few people asked what physical advantage a transwoman has over a ciswoman, they were either laughed at or told it was a matter of principle.)

Is it a matter of unfair advantage or is it a matter of principle? If it is a matter of principle, what is that principle?
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That just proves pool shouldn't be separated by sex.
 
I would have thought height would be an advantage for a pool player, if only because taller people don't have to use the rest so much. Whether men being taller than women on average makes enough difference to justify separate leagues I really don't know.
 
Well regardless it just loops us back to first principles.

If there is no difference there shouldn't be segregation, if there is a difference the segregation needs to exist along the actual meaningful axis.

A biological male playing in a women's league makes sense in neither of those.
 
Pixel42 said:
I would have thought height would be an advantage for a pool player, if only because taller people don't have to use the rest so much. Whether men being taller than women on average makes enough difference to justify separate leagues I really don't know.
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The advantage of males in pool is great enough that it would be doing a great disservice to women to disallow their leagues. It's a bit like when someone says, "Well, the Williams sisters could beat all the guys I know". Yes, but when they are up against professional males not so much.
 
JoeMorgue said:
That just proves pool shouldn't be separated by sex.
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JoeMorgue said:
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the fact that we have separate men and women's leagues for pool.
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I literally don't know what your position is.

Regardless, the existence of segregated leagues is not evidence that biological males have a physical advantage over biological females when playing pool, a game of geometry and finesse. Segregated leagues could just be misogynistic.
 
Why is there a women's category in this sport? Do men have an advantage, for whatever reason?

Given that there is a women's category, why should a man be allowed to join that category?
 
Matthew Best said:
Given that there is a women's category, why should a man be allowed to join that category?
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There isn't one, that I'm aware. The linked story is about a ciswoman and a transwoman.

edit: Regardless, that's not the question. Unless you are making the argument that this is the principle referred to?
 
Over the years of this thread, it's become pretty clear that males have a statistical physical advantage across the board, and top performing males have a consistent physical and cognitive advantage in pretty much every competitive endeavor between the sexes. This shows up in swimming. It shows up in tennis. It shows up in football. It even shows up even in chess. I would absolutely expect it to show up in pool. And I don't think it's transphobic to stand on the principle of not going there.
 
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Marcus said:
My source is really just knowledge of and participation in the sport, but here is an article about it . "Gender in Pool"

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/mental/gender-in-pool/
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Yikes. Did you read that list? Five of the six points sound like they were written by a 12 year old based on a 1950s understanding of gender roles, and one directly contradicts itself. Regardless, these are just claims with no evidence. If this is your only source, I'm not sure the claim has been supported.
 
Upchurch said:
There isn't one, that I'm aware. The linked story is about a ciswoman and a transwoman.
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Now I'm completely baffled. I thought this was a story about a woman competitor refusing to play a man because men don't belong in women's sports.

If you're saying it's a sport that doesn't have men's and women's categories, and it's just a woman refusing to play a trans woman because she doesn't like trans women, then who cares? Let the trans woman win.
 
Matthew Best said:
Why is there a women's category in this sport? Do men have an advantage, for whatever reason?

Given that there is a women's category, why should a man be allowed to join that category?
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Upchurch said:
There isn't one, that I'm aware. The linked story is about a ciswoman and a transwoman.
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A transwoman is a man in every way that actually matters.
 
Matthew Best said:
Now I'm completely baffled. I thought this was a story about a woman competitor refusing to play a man because men don't belong in women's sports.
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I don't know where you got that idea. The ciswoman competitor refused to play a transwoman competitor in a women's league. I was pretty clear about that. At no point did I mention a man.
 
Upchurch said:
I don't know where you got that idea. The ciswoman competitor refused to play a transwoman competitor in a women's league. I was pretty clear about that. At no point did I mention a man.
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I got the idea because I said "given that there is a women's category..." and you replied "there isn't one, that I am aware".

If you would speak a bit more clearly, we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.
 
Matthew Best said:
I got the idea because I said "given that there is a women's category..." and you replied "there isn't one, that I am aware".

If you would speak a bit more clearly, we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.
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Okay, then, to be clear, there is no man involved in this particular conflict.
 
Upchurch said:
That's your opinion. I disagree. It also has nothing to do with the question I asked, unless you are arguing that that is the principle at stake?
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The principle at stake is that males have a biological advantage over females in competitive sports, and it harms females when a male transcends sex segregation in sports to compete against females.

And while many continue to claim that transwomen are women in some way that actually matters, I have yet to see anyone support that claim with actual evidence. Or even with a reasoned conclusion from some clearly-articulated set of arbitrary axioms.

Decouple gender from sex, and gender is functionally meaningless. It turns out that the only time the question of gender actually matters is when it's really a question of sex. E.g., in athletic competition. Which pool is.

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Also, a phobia is an irrational fear. It turns out that it's totally rational to be afraid that some men, scumbags, will assert a right to compete athletically against women, to the detriment of those women, for no other reason than simply because they say they want to. What you're seeing here isn't transphobia, it's misogyny.
 
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