General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Planigale]

Why do I get told the polar opposite by the likes of Douglas Murray and Ben Shapiro?
Are they lying through their teeth?
I am a simple person looking for which should be the last definitive domino.
I always respect your posts, so look forward to a best endeavors on answering how these scholars and public intellectuals are so totally wrong.

From the Likud web site

Declaration of a State
A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration.

Settlements
The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
....
Self-Rule
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.
...
The Jordan River as a Permanent Border
The Jordan Valley and the territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli sovereignty. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel. The Kingdom of Jordan is a desirable partner in the permanent status arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians in matters that will be agreed upon.

https://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

Remember Likud is not the most extremist member of government. It is fairly clear what Likud's policy is in their own words. They will not negotiate on statehood for Palestinians, Israel extends from the sea to the river Jordan (note from the river to the sea is an anti-semitic slogan, but from the sea to river is pro-zionist). Their partners in government are not going to allow them to waver on this.

I am not familiar with either of the people you mention Ben Shapiro appears to be racist, homophobic and islamophobic - pretty much opposed to my existence. Douglas Murray seems to be a misogynist, racist and islamophobic. I am not taken to favour their views.

 

[Hercules56]

From the Likud web site


https://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

Remember Likud is not the most extremist member of government. It is fairly clear what Likud's policy is in their own words. They will not negotiate on statehood for Palestinians, Israel extends from the sea to the river Jordan (note from the river to the sea is an anti-semitic slogan, but from the sea to river is pro-zionist). Their partners in government are not going to allow them to waver on this.

I am not familiar with either of the people you mention Ben Shapiro appears to be racist, homophobic and islamophobic - pretty much opposed to my existence. Douglas Murray seems to be a misogynist, racist and islamophobic. I am not taken to favour their views.

The most extreme is probably "Jewish Power". Which is basically White Power except for Jews. They are racist fascists.

 

[webfusion]

The difference is that Jews are saying "we will control this entire land for the benefit of all its inhabitants, and provide limited self-rule to the Palestinians"
The Palestinians are saying "Get RID of the Jews and make this land Judenfrei" (now, there's a Nazi-era concept, right?)

 

[Leumas]

The difference is that Jews are saying "we will control this entire land for the benefit of all its inhabitants, and provide limited self-rule to the Palestinians"

Definitely not at all whatsoever what any Zionist and irrefragably not the Zionists in the settlements... they never said that and will never say that.

The Palestinians are saying "Get RID of the Jews and make this land Judenfrei" (now, there's a Nazi-era concept, right?)

They are saying... but not doing it.

The Zionists are saying the same about Palestinians AND ARE DOING IT.


Notice the map in the image below... this has been and remains the dream of Zionists.

[imgw=400]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Menachem_Begin_p%C5%99i_projevu_v_srpnu_1948.jpg/800px-Menachem_Begin_p%C5%99i_projevu_v_srpnu_1948.jpg[/imgw]
​

 

[webfusion]

That map was simply a map of the entirety of Mandate Palestine. The TransJordania portion (1922) was truncated and removed from the definition of the Jewish National Home (as envisioned by the San Remo Conference 1920).
Begin and many others felt this was unreasonable and unjust.

Zionists today in the various communities throughout Judea & Samaria (not small outposts, but main towns and villages) live and work alongside Palestinians daily. Ariel, for instance, is unrestricted to Palestinians who shop, obtain petrol for their vehicles, study at the university (Arab students have generally not felt any racially or politically motivated discrimination at the university), work, play and in a few cases, participate alongside their Jewish friends in our communal Jewish events (marriages, weddings, funerals).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_University

 

[webfusion]

Definitely not at all whatsoever what any Zionist and irrefragably not the Zionists in the settlements... they never said that and will never say that.

Yitzhak Rabin said it and accomplished it.

Have you never heard of the Oslo Agreements? Wye River Agreements?
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2537570

and
https://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/fs1.htm

(Dan was not just 'any Zionist' -- he created and became the director of Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs)

 

[Leumas]

That map was simply a map of existing Mandate Palestine. The entire TransJordania portion later (1922) was truncated and removed from the definition of the Jewish National Home (as envisioned by the San Remo Conference 1920).
...

Nonsense and you know that very well...

That picture was taken on August 1948... well after the British mandate was already dissolved and the U.N. Resolution 181 passed creating Israel (Nov. 1947) with its map as specified in that resolution... which was not that map being paraded as part of the celebration for the BIRTH (מולד) of Israel.

Why would a WANTED ZIONIST TERRORIST be celebrating the Birth Of Israel that had its map already clearly delineated which had nothing to do with the old map of the British mandate over PALESTINE while parading a map of the British mandate OVER PALESTINE with an arm carrying a rifle drawn over it?

 

[webfusion]

Nonsense and you know that very well...

The San Remo Conference was one point in time.
By 1948, I'm pretty sure the Israelis were quite fed-up with TransJordan and the attacks emanating from there. In August 1948, the war was in full throttle.
Begin (and others) felt that the San Remo Conference was the correct resolution to the matter of what lands should be included in a Jewish National Home as originally envisioned by the International Community.

That picture was taken on August 1948... well after the British mandate was already dissolved and the U.N. Resolution 181 passed creating Israel (Nov. 1947) with its map as specified in that resolution... which was not that map being paraded as part of the celebration for the BIRTH (מולד) of Israel.

That sign doesn't say MOLAD (birth) -- it says "Moledet" (Homeland) and under the graphic is written v'Herut (with Freedom, or Liberty).
https://farkash-gallery.com/menachem-begin-address-to-the-soldiers-and-liberators-of-the-nation-1948

By the way, UN 181 didn't 'create' Israel. It only offered a contorted and untenable outline for the Jewish State in statu nascendi.

Why would a WANTED ZIONIST TERRORIST be celebrating the Birth Of Israel (he wasn't celebrating that, as described above - ed.) that had its map already clearly delineated (and had already been rejected by the entire neighborhood - ed.) which had nothing to do with the old map of the British mandate over PALESTINE while parading a map of the British mandate OVER PALESTINE with an arm carrying a rifle drawn over it?

The "old map" of Mandate Palestine didn't last two years. (1920-22)
The British decided to hand that area over to the Hashemites. 'Screw the Jews' was the general attitude of the British Home Office towards the Jewish efforts to create a State.
By the 1940's the British decision to biff the Jews was even more pronounced. (See: Clandestine Immigration -- Aliyah Bet)
Menachem Begin felt the whole world wasn't worth a hill of beans to trust by that point, and Jews should simply take matters into their own hands. And having rifles at the ready wasn't a bad idea.

 

[Leumas]

....
Notice the map in the image below... this has been and remains the dream of Zionists.

That map was simply a map of the entirety of Mandate Palestine. ...

Nonsense and you know that very well...

...
Why would a WANTED ZIONIST TERRORIST be celebrating the Birth Of Israel that had its map already clearly delineated which had nothing to do with the old map of the British mandate over PALESTINE while parading a map of the British mandate OVER PALESTINE with an arm carrying a rifle drawn over it?

...
Begin (and others) felt that the San Remo Conference was the correct resolution to the matter of what lands should be included in a Jewish National Home as originally envisioned by the International Community.

That sign doesn't say MOLAD (birth) -- it says "Moledet" (Homeland) and under the graphic is written v'Herut (with Freedom, or Liberty). https://farkash-gallery.com/menache...nd-liberators-of-the-nation-1948[/B][/HILITE] .... Menachem Begin felt the whole world wasn't worth a hill of beans to trust by that point, and Jews should simply take matters into their own hands. And having rifles at the ready wasn't a bad idea.

Thanks... Your post proves even better my point... And by the way... the rifle was not just a "not a bad idea"... Menachem Begin and the rest of his terrorist Zionist organization was already a well seasoned and very experienced wanted terrorist who did not just think rifles and machine guns and explosives with which he killed civilians galore... he knew full well that they are the crucial and indispensable tools of his terror... in order to impose his Zionist ideas and aspiration.

 

[Leumas]

By the way, UN 181 didn't 'create' Israel. It only offered a contorted and untenable outline for the Jewish State in statu nascendi.
...

Hahaha... thank you yet again for proving that this

...."we will control this entire land...

Is the truth....


And that the below statement...

....for the benefit of all its inhabitants, and provide limited self-rule to the Palestinians"...

Is arrantly not true and will never be true so long as MIGHT makes right racism and xenophobia and self-righteous supremacism... as commanded and warranted by an imaginary friend of a mythical peripatetic Sumerian pimp, who is alleged to be a celestial ethnic-cleansing, slave-mongering, voodoo-rituals-prescribing, genocide-participating and commanding abject racist.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

CosmicYak proposes -- Perhaps they could let independent inspectors in? (to the hospitals)

No, that's not what I was proposing. I proposed that Hamas let independent inspectors look at their positions, to show that they don't have a base under the hospital. That means letting them check around the areas of the hospitals, not inside the hospitals themselves.

 

[webfusion]

We know perfectly well what is going on in those hospitals. Anyone who today hasn't been made fully aware just is being willfully blind.

As for having a good supply of weapons to maintain the peace, I would argue that this rather bloody experience of Gaza in oct/nov 2023 proves Jews to be legitimately correct in maintaining a well-developed fighting force.
I know from personal experience, better to possess a fully loaded M16 than not.
I'll leave it at that.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

where were those well-developed fighting forces on october 7th ?

 

[Leumas]

....
I know from personal experience, better to possess a fully loaded M16 than not.
I'll leave it at that.

But the Zionists did not leave it at that... many from the USA... born and bred in the USA... decided to do Aliyah and go with their M16 to Palestine to occupy as Settler Colonials the houses and farms recently snatched from their owners while the owners are confined behind walls of Apartheid being tormented mentally and abused physically and violated psychologically day in and day out while watching Indians and Russians and Ukrainians and Germans and Americans and and and occupying their old homes and using their old farms.

There is a difference between those who have and use M16s and M1s and F16s to oppress and perpetuate a Settler Colonialist apartheid against those autochthonous people whom they have and continue to abuse and torment and pillage... and those autochthonous wretches who hope to acquire even a bb gun so as to miserably and calamitously and futilely attempt desperately to take back their stolen LIVES let alone properties.

 

[The_Animus]

John Oliver of Last Week Tonight did his latest show on the Israeli Hamas War.



One thing I learned that was interesting is that Netanyahu's government was caught giving suitcases of cash to Hamas. That and a few other tidbits from the episode paints a picture of the Israeli right wing seeing Hamas as an asset as far as delegitimizing all Palestinian governance and preventing real peace talks so Netanyahu can maintain and expand control of government and personal power and push his Zionist agenda.

 

[Planigale]

John Oliver of Last Week Tonight did his latest show on the Israeli Hamas War.



One thing I learned that was interesting is that Netanyahu's government was caught giving suitcases of cash to Hamas. That and a few other tidbits from the episode paints a picture of the Israeli right wing seeing Hamas as an asset as far as delegitimizing all Palestinian governance and preventing real peace talks so Netanyahu can maintain and expand control of government and personal power and push his Zionist agenda.

Divide and Rule.

This is why Netanyahu has said that the PA will not be allowed to run Gaza. It serves Likud's interests to not have a unified Palestinian proto-state.

 

[Leumas]

John Oliver of Last Week Tonight did his latest show on the Israeli Hamas War.

[Yt ]pJ9PKQbkJv8?si=CyDRg0cf2w1FpYCa[/ yt]

One thing I learned that was interesting is that Netanyahu's government was caught giving suitcases of cash to Hamas. That and a few other tidbits from the episode paints a picture of the Israeli right wing seeing Hamas as an asset as far as delegitimizing all Palestinian governance and preventing real peace talks so Netanyahu can maintain and expand control of government and personal power and push his Zionist agenda.

Much like moslim fanatical terrorists have been fomented and aided and abetted throughout the annals of the Imperialist Europeans' and later the USA's machinations and skullduggery in M.E.'s miserable politics... and of course... petroleum and gas and other such "my precious" things.

It started in the early 1900s with the British arming Muslim TERRORISTS in order to topple the Ottomans... and went on the USA creating Muslim TERRORISTS in Africa and the Levant and Afghanistan etc. etc. in order to fight the Cold War with Russia... and now with China and Russia.

The muslim insanity has been the direct result of...

this... and this... and this... and most importantly this... and this... and and and and and

[imgw=400]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Reagan_sitting_with_people_from_the_Afghanistan-Pakistan_region_in_February_1983.jpg/800px-Reagan_sitting_with_people_from_the_Afghanistan-Pakistan_region_in_February_1983.jpg[/imgw]​

 

[theprestige]

Divide and Rule.

This is why Netanyahu has said that the PA will not be allowed to run Gaza. It serves Likud's interests to not have a unified Palestinian proto-state.

Given what the Palestinian terrorists get up to when they organize in large numbers, that's a totally reasonable matter of survival.

For about a day or so, it looked like Israel might be looking at a two-front war, Hamas on one side, Hezbollah on the other. Then the leader of Hezbollah released a statement saying his thoughts and prayers were with Hamas, but the fight had nothing to do with Hezbollah and Hezbollah were going to stay out of it. Imagine if the same genocidal leadership had control of both Gaza and the West Bank, and were able to properly coordinate two-pronged attacks on Israel.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Given what the Palestinian terrorists get up to when they organize in large numbers, that's a totally reasonable matter of survival.
For about a day or so, it looked like Israel might be looking at a two-front war, Hamas on one side, Hezbollah on the other. Then the leader of Hezbollah released a statement saying his thoughts and prayers were with Hamas, but the fight had nothing to do with Hezbollah and Hezbollah were going to stay out of it. Imagine if the same genocidal leadership had control of both Gaza and the West Bank, and were able to properly coordinate two-pronged attacks on Israel.

Yes, making genocide easier to commit is a "reasonable precaution".

 

[Leumas]

Yes, making genocide easier to commit is a "reasonable precaution".

How dare you have such chutzpah to use this word.

When European Settler Colonialists extirpate DARK HOSTILE autochthonous terrorists they are not committing genocide... what audacity!!!

Words like holocaust and genocide and concentration camps are only what OTHERS do to Europeans... Europeans never do that (except Nazis and Communists of course)... they only RETALIATE when those savage inhuman dark hostile animals armed with bb-guns commit atrocities against the poor oppressed Settler Colonialists who only are DEFENDING themselves with their defensive M16s and M1s and F16s.... what rudeness... how dare you call "mowing the grass" genocide!!!

Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples.

Notice the dates on the mowing-the-grass article above and this article... and the one below...

In Shambles: Israel’s 'Mowing the Grass' Doctrine
Opinion: quiet cannot be the strategic goal of a country if it allows its enemies a breathing space to grow and upgrade their arsenals and proliferate their presence along its frontiers