• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Ziggurat said:
I'm not sure you remember your own claim, and you certainly don't understand how it relates to your quote from Hamas. Let me remind you:



In your quote, they explicitly reject any such right. What do you think "from the river to the sea" means? What do you think "rejection of the Zionist entity" means? They suggest they might negotiate for such an existence, but not because Israel has any right to it, only for the sake of "national consensus". In other words, they're signaling a willingness to accept less than what they want. But they're quite explicit in your quote that what they want is the complete destruction of Israel. Stop making excuses for them.
Click to expand...

I am not making excuses for terrorism. But that does not mean the facts should not be considered. As you admit Hamas are signaling a willingness to accept less than what they want; that is what negotiation is about.

Unfortunately there is no sign that Likud which runs Israel is willing to consider a Palestinian homeland. The PA gave up terrorism and there has been no advance in Palestinian autonomy in the West Bank, indeed the opposite with more colonisation of the West Bank.
 
theprestige said:
Planigale et al. think we have a moral obligation to pretend Hamas is negotiating in good faith.
Click to expand...

There is no obligation to do so, any more than there is reason to believe the current Israeli government would negotiate in good faith. That is not a reason not to try negotiation.
 
Israel is much safer than it used to be, with a very capable, extremely well equipped military and better relations with its neighbors than ever before.
Is it really unreasonable to lower instead of increase aid to Israel under these circumstances?
 
Also, Israel wouldn't be negotiating with Hamas directly, but through intermediaries. So the question isn't "can we trust Hamas?", it's, "can someone else trust them who we have a better relationship with?"

So there really isn't an excuse not to negotiate at all
 
Hamas has asked for independant inspection of Gaza medical facillities to demonstrate they are not militarised. It will be interesting to see if Israel agrees.

I can see no benefit to Israel from allowing independant instectors, and we know from Iraq even when independant inspectors say that e.g. there are no WMD, if it is a message politicians don't want to hear they'll ignore it.
 
Planigale said:
Equally Likud and consequentially the Israeli government will not negotiate to recognise a two state solution, they are committed to a Jewish state from the sea to the river,
Click to expand...

Actually, Netanyahu and the current Israeli government has been very vague about whether or not they support a two-state solution.
Have you got any links to show they reject negotiations, and will not accept a Palestinian state?
There is also a fundamental difference between Hamas and the current Israeli government: Israel has regular elections, Gaza does not. The people of Israel are free to choose their government, whereas the citizens of Gaza are not. If the Israeli public decides they want negotiations, they can elect a government to do so. Hamas is holding Gaza hostage: the Palestinians living there have no say whatsoever in what Hamas chooses to do. Hamas, despite its new PC charter, has clearly not changed its spots, and is still dedicated to the destruction of Israel and a rejection of a peaceful solution. The problem is that the population of Gaza is stuck with this choice.
 
Planigale said:
No they can't because Likud (not the most right wing element in the Israeli government), is not prepared to recognise the right to existence of a Palestinian state, whilst the PA and Hamas do recognise the right of existence of a Jewish homeland / Israel
Click to expand...
Why do I get told the polar opposite by the likes of Douglas Murray and Ben Shapiro?
Are they lying through their teeth?
I am a simple person looking for which should be the last definitive domino.
I always respect your posts, so look forward to a best endeavors on answering how these scholars and public intellectuals are so totally wrong.
 
Planigale said:
I am not making excuses for terrorism. But that does not mean the facts should not be considered. As you admit Hamas are signaling a willingness to accept less than what they want; that is what negotiation is about.

Unfortunately there is no sign that Likud which runs Israel is willing to consider a Palestinian homeland. The PA gave up terrorism and there has been no advance in Palestinian autonomy in the West Bank, indeed the opposite with more colonisation of the West Bank.
Click to expand...

Er...no, I don't think so. Do you mean the PLO?
The Palestinian Authority was formed during the Oslo Accords discussions: it never was a terrorist group.
It is, however, controlled by Fatah who, AFAIK, have not renounced violence.
I could be wrong- this is a complicated situation. Happy to be corrected.
 
Planigale said:
Hamas has asked for independant inspection of Gaza medical facillities to demonstrate they are not militarised. It will be interesting to see if Israel agrees.

I can see no benefit to Israel from allowing independant instectors, and we know from Iraq even when independant inspectors say that e.g. there are no WMD, if it is a message politicians don't want to hear they'll ignore it.
Click to expand...

Hamas is fighting from the area around the hospital. Perhaps they could let independent inspectors in to show they have not established a command centre under the hospital, as Israel has claimed? Show the inspectors around their positions, and let the world know what's really going on.
I don't think anyone is claiming the hospital itself has been militarised. Is this an attempt at misdirection by Hamas?
 
Samson said:
Why do I get told the polar opposite by the likes of Douglas Murray and Ben Shapiro?
Are they lying through their teeth?I am a simple person looking for which should be the last definitive domino.
I always respect your posts, so look forward to a best endeavors on answering how these scholars and public intellectuals are so totally wrong.
Click to expand...

yes
 
This all boils down to two groups of violent men, who get into power, think violence will work and get others to do the violence for them as they hide.

It is only when either they, or pretty much everyone around them wake up to the futility of the violence, that it has any chance of ending.
 
Planigale said:
No they can't because Likud (not the most right wing element in the Israeli government), is not prepared to recognise the right to existence of a Palestinian state, whilst the PA and Hamas do recognise the right of existence of a Jewish homeland / Israel
Click to expand...

Nessie said:
This all boils down to two groups of violent men, who get into power, think violence will work and get others to do the violence for them as they hide.

It is only when either they, or pretty much everyone around them wake up to the futility of the violence, that it has any chance of ending.
Click to expand...
Hamas and Putin sacrifice the children.
 
CosmicYak proposes -- Perhaps they could let independent inspectors in? (to the hospitals)

HAMAS has been deprived of any further say-so about these hospitals or pretty much any other adminstrative actions. The hostage negotiations with them are also at a standstill, because HAMAS claims they only hold 20 themselves, with the rest in the hands of other jihadist groups, and to get them all to agree on any specific plan for their release is like herding cats.

UNRWA fuel tanks have run dry and most hospitals no longer are functional, while IDF tanks surround them.

The International Community will have to now step in, and start evacuating the sick and injured to offshore hospital ships. Maybe the ICRC can demand that the cadavers of Israelis be turned over, unconditionally? (you know, for 'humanitarian' reasons).

Meanwhile, HAMAS is literally using the front entrance of alQuds hospital as a militarized firing position.
 
Nessie said:
It is only when either they, or pretty much everyone around them wake up to the futility of the violence, that it has any chance of ending.
Click to expand...

This is the delusion of the pacifists. Some problems can ONLY be solved through violence. There was no possible way the Allies could ever stop the Axis other than through violence.
 
Planigale said:
I am not making excuses for terrorism. But that does not mean the facts should not be considered.
Click to expand...

You absolutely were making excuses. You invented false facts which your own source contradicted, in order to try to make them appear more benign than they are. Hamas does not believe Israel has the right to exist. You're in denial about their fundamental nature.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom