General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Roboramma]

When a country goes to war, its citizens, rather than its government, do the dying. That explains the UK survey result.

No, it doesn't, because in this case the people of the UK aren't answering a survey about their country going to war.

 

[Hercules56]

Of course, you're incorrect, because a vibrant and free society existed in NorthAmerica in the 5th century.
The USA committed genocide upon them.


Yeah, I believe you. (not)

https://research.google/locations/israel

https://www.microsoftrnd.co.il

https://elbitsystems.com/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/news...mportant-link-in-the-global-chip-supply-chain

https://www.israel21c.org/

Need more? Or is this enough debunking of your claim?

When Israel stops acting like the Taliban and the Afrikaaners, we can talk about them joining the 21st century.

 

[webfusion]

Leumas, you seem to be having a fit of apoplexy.
"The Israeli Interior Ministry registers marriages on presentation of the required documentation."
Including the Utah Proxy.

Israelis have a law like that because their religious populations (not just Jews) wanted it to be enshrined in law. If enough people (including the 20% who aren't Jewish) petition our Parliamentary legislators to alter that status-quo (in effect from Ottoman times) then it could be changed.
I don't really see a groundswell of support for that.

 

[webfusion]

Well, the dead have been avenged ten times over, now haven't they.

I don't think that the purpose of this war is to avenge anything.

The aims of this very difficult and dangerous mission for our soldiers is to alter the entire dynamic of Gaza.
To completely overturn the status-quo, politically, militarily, psychologically.

So far, it's doing exactly that. North gaza has been cleared of Hamas control. None of their capabilities to function exist anymore there.
The people in Gaza are realizing that they have the power to bypass Hamas, for the first time in over a decade. That is good news.

 

[Roboramma]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_51282655029e6c0041.jpg[/qimg]​

Who knew we only need ~$10//person/year for universal health care and free post secondary education? Makes me wonder why those things are even an issue at all given how easy it would be for government to supply them at that price on the one hand, or for private citizens to just pay out of pocket on the other...

Hmmmmmm...

 

[Roboramma]

Anyone who believes in human freedom.

Free societies do not tell people that they cannot marry someone of a different faith. Nor do they allow religious authorities to govern divorce. Sounds like Iran and the Taliban.

Except it's not like Iran and the Taliban. Just as you claim that Israel is less free than the US, and there is some merit to that claim, Iran is much less free than Israel.

You are suggesting withdrawing support for Israel, a small country surrounded by enemies with declared genocidal intent, because it is less free than the US, when, on whatever metric of liberal values you choose, it scores significantly greater than any country in the region: those enemies that American support defends it from.

Stop making the perfect the enemy of the good.

 

[Leumas]

Who knew we only need ~$10//person/year for universal health care and free post secondary education? Makes me wonder why those things are even an issue at all given how easy it would be for government to supply them at that price on the one hand, or for private citizens to just pay out of pocket on the other...

Hmmmmmm...

Well... she is not good at math because she did not have as good an education as those in Israel because her parents' taxes were spent there instead of on her education and health care.

Nevertheless... $11M per day ≈ 4 BILLION$$$ a year.... in fact the USA gives effectively 10 billion$$$ to Israel on NORMAL years and a lot more than that when Netanyahu decides to "mow the grass" which is a regular pass time for him over his 16 years of rule.

 

[Leumas]

Leumas, you seem to be having a fit of apoplexy.

Thanks... good to know that you have nothing rational in reply.

Facts are hard to swallow especially when propaganda is the aim.

And here have a look at this discussion that will cause more hard swallowing....

Israel makes Jews unsafe throughout the world

 

[Roboramma]

Well... she is not good at math because she did not have as good an education as those in Israel because her parents' taxes were spent there instead of on her education and health care.

Looks like your math is about as good as hers.

 

[Leumas]

Looks like your math is about as good as hers.

You are not seeing very well... but neither her math nor mine are of any relevance... and your red herring is not succeeding.

The relevant thing is that BILLION$$$$$$ of American tax money goes to finance the good life of Israelis at the expense of the misery of the poor in America.... get it?

Stop throwing red herrings to pull the wool over this sordid fact that Israelis are living a better life than the American average person who is financing the Israeli better life with their hard earned money stolen from them by venal congress people.

 

[Roboramma]

You are not seeing very well... but neither her math nor mine are of any relevance... and your red herring is not succeeding.

You claimed that her education was poor because of American money being spent in Israel. How her claimed $10/person/year can be seen as causative of any lack in the American education system is I suppose left as an exercise for the reader.

 

[Leumas]

"Secular" Settler Colonialist State... but only for observant Torah reading Jews

Israel is a secular NationState. It has no theological aspect governmentally or Constitutionally (well, there's no offical Constitution, but BasicLaws)

You yourself belied the above with your very own words...

Here... look...

Just so that I am clear... what would all those Zionist terrorists in Israel do if the Palestinians all declared their conversion to Judaism?

You're unclear and foggy, actually.
Judaism has a detailed and complex methodology for conversion.
You don't just 'declare' it, but rather, require a panel of religious Judges (Bet Din) to approve your intent and verify your Torah/halacha adoption. In Israel, it's a rigorous and long process, sometimes lasting more than a year, attending many classes and consultations with Rabbis, becoming an active participant in a Minyan, and of course, immersion into a ritual bath (mikva).

Nice try to invent a theoretical that isn't a real option.

Would they accept that and give them Aliyah rights just like say they gave the Africans or Indians?

Both groups were well-established practitioners of Judaism, with Rabbis; Minyan formation; Torah reading; circumcision; traditional observance; marriage rituals; etc.
You can't just snap your fingers and become a Jew like magic.

 

[Leumas]

...How her claimed $10/person/year can be seen as causative of any lack in the American education system is I suppose left as an exercise for the reader.

Here is an exercise you can do... how many of the BILLION$$$ given to Israel year after year after year in order to better ethnically cleanse Palestinians and have Settler Colonies that are the pride of its settlers, would it take to help this person and the millions like her/him throughout most of the cities of the USA?

[imgw=400]https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/11/21/homeless_wide-0921690dba48a00c983ecc2bb1ddd8301a9f935a-s800-c85.webp[/imgw]​

 

[Nessie]

I don't think that the purpose of this war is to avenge anything.

The aims of this very difficult and dangerous mission for our soldiers is to alter the entire dynamic of Gaza.
To completely overturn the status-quo, politically, militarily, psychologically.

So far, it's doing exactly that. North gaza has been cleared of Hamas control. None of their capabilities to function exist anymore there.
The people in Gaza are realizing that they have the power to bypass Hamas, for the first time in over a decade. That is good news.

I think the Israeli attack is motivated by both revenge and regime change.

 

[lionking]

I think the Israeli attack is motivated by both revenge and regime change.

Are these reasons invalid? If so what reasons are valid?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Are these reasons invalid? If so what reasons are valid?

I would say - they are not expedient, if the goal is a peaceful coexistence of Palestinians and Israeli.
If it's about distracting from the Netanyahu government utter failure to protect its citizens and use the massacre as a pretext to poison the well for the new government that's sure to come after the next election, then it is very expedient.

 

[lionking]

I would say - they are not expedient, if the goal is a peaceful coexistence of Palestinians and Israeli.

How about Hamas as the leaders of Gaza abandoning their determination to destroy Israel as a first step? Without that there can’t be peace at all. How about putting the blame where it belongs?

 

[Nessie]

Are these reasons invalid? If so what reasons are valid?

Those reasons are not invalid, to the majority of Israelis and many others. They are invalid to the majority of Palestinians and many others.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

How about Hamas as the leaders of Gaza abandoning their determination to destroy Israel as a first step? Without that there can’t be peace at all. How about putting the blame where it belongs?

Can you direct me to a policy statement by Israel that would recognize Hamas as a legitimate negotiation partner for the Palestinians for abandoning their determination to destroy Israel ?

Because all I hear and see is demands of Israel that Hamas needs to be eliminated no matter what.

You can't have it both ways: either Hamas gets to be treated as a government, and then it gets the same respect and responsibility as one, or it's a terrorist organization.
You are basically complaining that the rabid dog you raised bit you.

 

[Sherkeu]

Palestine as an independent legal entity, with either Hamas OR PLO in charge is certainly in question, if not doomed at this point. No use arguing really who gets to negotiate when they will both be out of power and international groups moved in- for safety and security.

article: Arab-Islamic summit adopts resolution on Israeli aggression against the Palestinian people
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2407236/middle-east

Emergency meeting they had ends with a "strongly worded letter" of condemnation.
There will be requests to the UN and a committee, and a peace summit 'soon'...blah blah blah.

Basically, from what I read between the lines is that everyone in the Arab/Islamic states has agreed (or acquiesced) to pay off Egypt and fund the UN and NGO's to take care of this issue.
They dont mind too much that Israel razes most of the Gaza Strip to the ground.
---Not enough for any real diplomatic or trade punishments.