General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[theprestige]

So the murderer gets to define what constitutes murder and presto he is not a murderer any longer... : sdL :

No. When it comes to human shields in warfare, who is the murderer and who isn't is defined by the Geneva Conventions, International Humanitarian Law, and other agreements in international law.

Using human shields is a war crime. Proportional attacks on military targets hiding behind human shields is not a war crime. The reasons why this is a good idea should be obvious, but here we are.

 

[Hercules56]

So is Israel... and doing it too and has been doing it for decades upon decades... long before Hamas.





So the murderer gets to define what constitutes murder and presto he is not a murderer any longer... :sdL:





Yes... and so is willfully killing the "human shields".

If a fleeing bank robber deliberately runs into a crowded shop... what do you call the police who start shooting at him regardless of the people around him?

Do you believe Israel ever has the right to kill Hamas terrorists?

 

[lionking]

I had to open the link to even understand that what you were describing/claiming is NOT a poll of Israeli attitudes, but rather, the UK.

A bit dishonest, if you ask me, but whatever...

As for a ceasefire in-place, has it not occurred to anyone that once such a thing happens (and it will, eventually) the Israelis may just say, OK, we're here, you're over there. We're going to erect a fenceline along the ceasefire 'borders' (armistice lines) and call it a day.

That's what happened in 1949.
(Rhodes Ceasefire)

I didn’t open that link because of the unreliability of that member’s posts, but am not surprised at the breathtaking dishonesty of it.

I could add that you can scratch a Brit and a racist will likely emerge, but I can’t really be bothered.

 

[webfusion]

Do you believe Israel ever has the right to kill Hamas terrorists?

The IDF certainly is claiming that right, as today there are a reported 18 lying dead in Jenin, and over 50 eliminated in Gaza.

Hard to keep track, but not only are there some lethal results of these anti-terror raids, also since the beginning of the war over 1,430 'suspects' have been arrested in the WestBank, over 900 of whom were affiliated with Hamas.

When Israel releases prisoners for hostages, there are going to be thousands, perhaps in the range of 6,000 or more. (My prediction, based on absolutely nothing).

 

[Leumas]

Do you believe Israel ever has the right to kill Hamas terrorists?

Certainly they do... annihilate the ******* moronic terrorists.

But... Israel is not doing that... the leadership of Hamas are all in Qatar RIGHT NOW luxuriating in 7-stars hotels... while Israel is obliterating the poor people those venal terrorists also terrorize.

Why doesn't Israel go kill them there... one bomber would achieve that... or send in a few Mossad agents... they certainly have scores there already.

The answer... is because then Israel would lose the EXCUSE it needs to carry out the Sippenhaftung necessary for accomplishing its own version of the FINAL SOLUTION.

 

[Leumas]

No. When it comes to human shields in warfare, who is the murderer and who isn't is defined by the Geneva Conventions, International Humanitarian Law, and other agreements in international law.

Using human shields is a war crime. Proportional attacks on military targets hiding behind human shields is not a war crime. The reasons why this is a good idea should be obvious, but here we are.

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

You cannot have a war on people you are occupying and are confining in concentration camps.

The Nazis were not having a war against the European Jews.... and if as has taken place all over the occupied territories the Nazis occupied, some Jewish resistance killed Germans and Nazis... no one on earth would justify the Nazis' Sippenhaftung on the victims of the concentration camps they long before created, as just the outcome of the WAR the Nazi declared on the Jews in retaliation for the acts of those saboteurs and terrorists.

 

[Leumas]

Civil crime is fundamentally different than war.

So the chronic serial killer can retroactively declare war on his victims and then proceed to justify and defend his latest killing as defending himself and just a retaliation for the war crime committed by the criminal who cut off the killer's leg while trying to escape the torture chamber the serial killer was holding him in?

 

[Ziggurat]

So the chronic serial killer can retroactively declare war on his victims

You cannot honestly be this stupid.

 

[Ziggurat]

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

If the law does not recognize this as war, then the law is an ass. This is war. Morally, practically, strategically, it's war. I'm not going to call it anything else on some technicality.

 

[Leumas]

You cannot honestly be this stupid.

If you can be, I can also be in response to yours... or are you the only one allowed to be so?

 

[Leumas]

If the law does not recognize this as war, then the law is an ass. This is war. Morally, practically, strategically, it's war. I'm not going to call it anything else on some technicality.

Yes... that is the chronic serial Killer's defense too.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes... that is the chronic serial Killer's defense too.

No, it really isn't. A typical serial killer defense is simply, "I didn't do it".

Do you always just make **** up? Never mind, to ask is to answer.

 

[Hercules56]

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

You cannot have a war on people you are occupying and are confining in concentration camps.

The Nazis were not having a war against the European Jews.... and if as has taken place all over the occupied territories the Nazis occupied, some Jewish resistance killed Germans and Nazis... no one on earth would justify the Nazis' Sippenhaftung on the victims of the concentration camps they long before created, as just the outcome of the WAR the Nazi declared on the Jews in retaliation for the acts of those saboteurs and terrorists.

Concentration camps don't have malls, fancy hotels, beaches and expensive houses.

Gaza does. Well they did, until Hamas decided to murder 1,300 Israelis in one day.

 

[Leumas]

No, it really isn't.

Yes really it is.

A typical serial killer defense is simply, "I didn't do it".

What about an atypical one?

Do you always just make **** up? Never mind, to ask is to answer.

Ah so you are the only one who is allowed to

just make **** up?

Why do you always deny for others what you yourself do... is there a special reason you feel that you are entitled to do things that you decry when others do them??

Never mind, to ask is to answer.

 

[Ziggurat]

What about an atypical one?

What about one? Why do you care what excuses serial killers might make? Do you think that somehow matters? No, it doesn't. A serial killer claiming his killings are war doesn't make them war.

Ah so you are the only one who is allowed to

I haven't made up anything. Perhaps you think I have, but you're just really bad at making arguments, and so can't recognize them either.

 

[The Atheist]

Feel free to dismiss Médecins Sans Frontières as terrorist propaganda.

The humanitarian group said its teams treated a paramedic on Thursday morning who was shot inside an ambulance, while Israeli army vehicles blocked ambulances from accessing hospitals.

An Israeli soldier fired at the emergency unit of a hospital on Wednesday night, “hitting the wall in full view of our colleagues who were standing outside”, MSF said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/9/israel-gaza-war-live-day-34

 

[theprestige]

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

You cannot have a war on people you are occupying and are confining in concentration camps.

The Nazis were not having a war against the European Jews.... and if as has taken place all over the occupied territories the Nazis occupied, some Jewish resistance killed Germans and Nazis... no one on earth would justify the Nazis' Sippenhaftung on the victims of the concentration camps they long before created, as just the outcome of the WAR the Nazi declared on the Jews in retaliation for the acts of those saboteurs and terrorists.

I'm satisfied that the principles of collateral damage outlined in International Humanitarian Law are equally applicable to other hostage and human shield scenarios. Even the concept of "military value" is easily translated to, say, a hostage situation in a prison break. The ethics, of balancing the risk of harm to the hostage against the risk of other harm if the hostage-taker is not defeated, are a solved problem. If you won't (or can't) apply the principles of distinction, military necessity, and proportionality to Hamas's use of human shields, that's your problem, not mine. Not Israel's.

If you need to reason from first principles to your own coherent ethical framework, for how to deal with human shields when engaged in a violent conflict with an unethical enemy, take your time. But I'm not going to hold your hand or wait around for you to figure it out. Get back to me once you know what you're conclusions are, and how you reached them.

 

[theprestige]

Feel free to dismiss Médecins Sans Frontières as terrorist propaganda.



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/9/israel-gaza-war-live-day-34

There's a reason combatants masquerading as medics is a war crime. Because once you do it once, your opponent is forced to assume you're doing it every time. There's a good reason Israel is stopping and searching ambulances. The harm to innocents arising from this necessity is entirely Hamas's fault.

Either I'm going to dismiss MSF as knowing propagandists, or as useful idiots. You tell me: are they informed scumbags, or just really stupid?

 

[webfusion]

Feel free to dismiss Médecins Sans Frontières as terrorist propaganda.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/9/israel-gaza-war-live-day-34

If they wish to operate in Gaza, they must behave along party lines and not antagonize Hamas in any way.
Civilian (Red Crescent) ambulances are at the disposal of combatants. This is precisely what captured Hamas men have admitted. If alQuds Childrens' hospital is out of fuel to run their generators, then perhaps the most vital thing they can do is request an evacuation by IDF, and transfer their operations to a well-equipped field hospital or hospital ship offshore, both of which the International community have sent to help.

Also, from the looks of things (many photos show) there are a lot of Palestinian children without shoes.
Can we please start a donation drive for kids' shoes?

Oy Vey, the Gazans are extremely fortunate that no rain has fallen this month yet.
Once the skies open up and drench the ruins, and flood the tent cities, it'll be a whole 'nother level of crisis for these people. Not to mention the mosquitos that will thrive in every little nook of standing water and cause havoc of their own.

 

[webfusion]

Concentration camps don't have malls, fancy hotels, beaches and expensive houses.

Gaza does. Well they did, until Hamas decided to murder 1,300 Israelis in one day.

The people of Gaza used to also have a beautiful International Air Terminal, with the Jordanian kingdom being one of the primary carriers operating flights. I recall that Palestine Airlines had 2 Fokker50 aircraft in their fleet. (In 2020, the company was put into liquidation).