Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

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Vixen said:
...according to urban myth, was in a hurry to catch a plane to an important meeting and was only arrested on his return.
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Why in Ed's name would you even introduce such a thing as though it's evidence?
 
Vixen said:
According to Merriam-Webster, it is "What does it mean to withstand fire?

: degree of resistance of material to fire often measured in terms of time of withstanding a standard test fire."
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The question is what did you mean. The building withstood its contents being on fire for some hours, did it not?
 
Foster Zygote said:
I'd intended to comment on this, but forgot.



Vixen, could you please tell us how you think welding actually works?
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Right. My comment was within a very specific context, which was to do with obtaining the same deformations in a piece of steel (of a ship's bow thickness) as that of deformations caused by an explosives event (high velocity impact at over 700°C) which could not be replicated by mechanical means or by using a blow torch, but could only be artificially created in a laboratory. Talking about the quality and standard of deformation in metallurgy.
 
Vixen said:
If a building is in uncontrollable fire, then the police and firefighters have no idea what type of car caused the blaze, other than a CCTV shot and information from the presumed driver, who, according to urban myth, was in a hurry to catch a plane to an important meeting and was only arrested on his return.
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The authorities have no idea what happened except for all the witness statements and all the corroborating video recordings. I guess it's just a mystery.
 
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Vixen said:
Right. My comment was within a very specific context, which was to do with obtaining the same deformations in a piece of steel (of a ship's bow thickness) as that of deformations caused by an explosives event (high velocity impact at over 700°C) which could not be replicated by mechanical means or by using a blow torch, but could only be artificially created in a laboratory. Talking about the quality and standard of deformation in metallurgy.
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Not only does this not answer the question asked, it's also a straight up lie. You claimed 700°C could not be replicated outside a lab. No qualifiers, no nothing. It was only after people started mocking this obvious idiocy that you attempted to warp your boneheaded statement into something far more specific to prevent yourself from being laughably wrong. It's not working Vixen. We were there for the initial incident. We remember it, so attempting to lie about it isn't going to work.
 
Vixen said:
There are youtube videos which explain how cheap and easy it can be to convert an ICE car to hybrid or an EV
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I already said EV conversion is a cottage industry. EVs are not relevant to the Luton fire.

Now, which video shows a car being converted to a hybrid?
 
Vixen said:
But the fire brigade were there within eight minutes. What was the problem in putting out a simple electrical fire in a diesel car?

Nobody is disputing 'a car burns intensely'.


I notice you have tried to introduce a new strawman in your last sentence.
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Because you do not know how many cars were involved in the fire by the time they arrived. From your post, you are insinuating that there was only one car on fire at the time.
 
Vixen said:
But the fire brigade were there within eight minutes. What was the problem in putting out a simple electrical fire in a diesel car?
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'There' was three storeys below the location of the fire.

How many minutes until they began any actual firefighting efforts?
 
Vixen said:
But the fire brigade were there within eight minutes. What was the problem in putting out a simple electrical fire in a diesel car?

Nobody is disputing 'a car burns intensely'.
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Arriving within 8 minutes doesn't mean the fire is being fought after 8 minutes. Preparing to start actively fighting a fire takes a fair while, especially if the fire is on an upper floor. There was an example upthread where a car was burning on the street. The fire engine arrived and it was still some minutes before a hose was deployed and water started flowing, even in that much more straightforward environment.

But you know all this. The mystery is why the hell you feel the need to persist with such bilge.
 
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Vixen said:
My comment was within a very specific context...
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It was in a context you clearly don't understand.

Talking about the quality and standard of deformation in metallurgy.
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Which you admit you know nothing about, and it shows. Your ignorance of the principles involved led you to claim temperatures above 700 °C could not be achieved outside the laboratory and that welding torches could not melt steel.

Your ongoing ignorance of how the natural world behaves is very much on display in this thread as well. For example, you seem to think heat fails concrete by melting and softening it. And you can't seem to wrap your head around how fires spread. This is why armchair detectives are worse than useless.

I too would like to know how you think welding works.
 
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Vixen said:
But the fire brigade were there within eight minutes. What was the problem in putting out a simple electrical fire in a diesel car?

Nobody is disputing 'a car burns intensely'.


I notice you have tried to introduce a new strawman in your last sentence.
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Please justify your eight minutes claim.

The report was that the fire service arrived about ten minutes after the initial call to 999. We have no idea how many minutes it took from the start of the fire to the first 999 call.

And even if they had arrived exactly eight minutes after the fire started, the A5 video proves that a car can be fully engulfed in flames in the space of just a few minutes.

Do you think that firefighters arriving on scene just run full tilt into a fire without carefully assessing the situation? It's not a cartoon like Paw Patrol. They don't just speed straight into the garage with the pumper truck and douse the fire with water. Even getting the hoses deployed and hooked up to the water source takes a few minutes.

As desperately as you want to deny it, the diesel Land Rover had plenty of time to erupt into a fire capable of spreading to other vehicles in the garage.
 
phiwum said:
Vixen, do diesel hybrids put out less black, sooty smoke than diesel internal combustion engines when they are on fire? Whatever else might be burning in a hybrid, there's still roughly the same amount of diesel burning, right?

So if the lack of black smoke is an issue for the hypothesis that it is a diesel ICE vehicle, it's equally an issue for the hypothesis that it's a diesel hybrid, no?
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The fire in the photograph appears to be confined to the front left of the car and towards the lower part. There is no smoke coming from the engine at the front or the fuel tank at the rear. The flames are orange and red with the grey smoke that is a classic of a lithium-ion fire. The driver was unable to extinguish it with a couple of fire extinguishers which would normally do the job, or failing that by the fire brigade who arrived very promptly - 'within eight minutes'.

So what happened here? I likely scenario IMV having looked at all of the possible facts available so far is that a thermal runaway started in a lithium-ion battery situated towards the front of the vehicle. This is uncontainable by ordinary means as it self-oxygenates, so the driver abandoned his attempts. A burning lithium-ion battery is not only intensely hot (up to 2,000°) - it is the size of a suitcase and is packed with cells - but it gives of projectiles of intense heat. A shrapnel from this lithium battery fire penetrated the diesel fuel tank, causing the hot vapours there, which are given off by the diesel at circa 100 °C, to ignite being within 10% of the flashpoint, causing a massive fireball and it is this fireball of intense heat together with the lithium-ion battery fire that caused rapid spread to other vehicles and causing the concrete and steel rebars to buckle, somehow causing the vehicles in the next roof top level to ignite, being completely open-air and fanned by windy weather. The evidence for this are witnesses describing flame being 'thrown'.

Lithium-ion fires throw flames and become so hot, it explains why the floor beneath Vehicle Zero collapsed from the heat intensity. In addition, lithium-ion battery fires give off extremely noxious fumes and this explains why five personnel were immediately stricken by inhalation difficulties and the entire fire brigade having to withdraw from the building all together. If you recall, at Liverpool they were able to fight the fire from the stairwells for nigh on two hours before giving up. At Luton a major incident was declared just half an hour after their arrival.
 
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