General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Nessie]

Also because it will enrich them and enable them to buy even more power from the venal whores in the brothels of power under them who make the laws and execute them in order to hoodwink those whom they will send to kill and die and make more money for those whores and their customers.

Israel buys a lot of weapons. Countries who sell them don't want to lose that trade. Those county's governments are less likely to be critical.

 

[Ziggurat]

Especially when the number of dead killed by your side FAR outweighs the number of dead killed by your enemy.

Ah yes. The old argument that things would be better if only there were more dead Jews.

And you actually think you're taking a moral position.

 

[Hercules56]

That is not I... but it is almost all of the Zionists whether the ones who worship the sky daddy or his ill begotten son.





Yes... you are describing exactly the Zionists whether they worship the imaginary friend of a mythical Sumerian Pimp or his Zombified ill begotten son.





Just the ones who are Zionists.





Nope... not because they do not share the beliefs that I do no hold... it is because these demented Zionists share between them an INSANE belief in the sky daddy of a peripatetic Sumerian pimp and his ill begotten son.... and are deliberately trying to end humanity.





Indeed.

Why do you attack Judaism but give Islam a free pass?

 

[Leumas]

Ah yes. The old argument that things would be better if only there were more dead Jews.

And you actually think you're taking a moral position.

Do you think the victim of abuse should be able to abuse when he grows up and becomes an adult... with impunity or be given a lesser consequence for his abuse just because he was abused??

Do you think the victim of abuse who is now an adult abuser himself should be allowed to keep playing the victim card to justify his abuses?

Which is more IMMORAL... the victim of abuse who grows up to be a hideous abuser... or HIS VICTIMS of his abuse now that he is an adult abuser and victimizing his own victims?

Do you think the victims of the abused abuser have to themselves just take the abuse dished out to them by this abused abuser?

 

[Hercules56]

Ah yes. The old argument that things would be better if only there were more dead Jews....

No, that's not my argument at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Hercules56]

Do you think the victim of abuse should be able to abuse when he grows up and becomes and adult... with impunity or be given a lesser consequence for his abuse just because he was abused??

Do you think the victim of abuse who is now an adult abuser himself should be allowed to keep playing the victim card to justify his abuses?

Which is more IMMORAL... the victim of abuse who grows up to be a hideous abuser... or HIS VICTIMS of abuse now that he is an adult abuser and victimizing his own victims?

Do you think the victims of the abused abuser have to themselves just take the abuse dished out to them by this abused abuser?

No one forced Hamas to murder 1,300 Jews on 10/7. Its a choice they made and there are consequences for such decisions.

 

[Leumas]

No one forced Hamas to murder 1,300 Jews on 10/7.

And long before 10/7 no one forced Israel to do all the ethnic cleansing and apartheid and torment it wreaked on the Palestinians for decades upon decades.

...Its a choice they made and there are consequences for such decisions.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, that's not my argument at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

That's the logical implication of the conclusion that the relative number of casualties is a useful metric for morality.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you think the victim of abuse should be able to abuse when he grows up and becomes an adult... with impunity or be given a lesser consequence for his abuse just because he was abused??

That's really not a parallel situation, at all. Don't argue from analogy, argue the actual case before us.

 

[webfusion]

And long before 10/7 no one forced Israel to do all the ethnic cleansing and apartheid and torment it wreaked on the Palestinians for decades upon decades.

Let's be aware that Leumas is now openly agreeing with/rationalizing the actions of 10/7.
And honestly, in the streets of Los Angeles, New York DC, London, Paris, etc, hundreds of thousands are also agreeing.

In fact, during a screening of a film showing the extent of the atrocities, outside the Holocaust Educational facility, Israeli flags being displayed were sufficient reason for kefiyya-masked men to attack the Jews.

If Jews continue to be molested, attacked, killed, and their businesses/homes/houses of worship defaced and/or shot up, I'm here to tell you that at some point, people are going to open live fire at the perpetrators of these violent actions.

Next Tuesday might be the Crossing of the Rubicon towards that.

 

[Ziggurat]

She was a child in that photo WHEN IT WAS TAKEN

She wasn't sentenced to prison when that photo was taken. That photo is from years earlier.

and was innocent...

She committed assault and battery on multiple people. She wasn't innocent, she was guilty.

But you seem to have forgotten that I used that picture as a stark and irrefutable demonstration of how Palestinians are not "arabs"

I haven't forgotten that, I don't care.

But... let me see if I got you right.... you think a CHILD getting 8 months in prison is fair for when she was a CHILD?

A 16 year old (actually 17 when sentenced) getting 8 months in prison for assault and battery? Yeah, I'm OK with that.

So the CHILD is not innocent if she grows up to be a resister of oppression and occupation and ethnic cleansing and genocide on her people after having spent EIGHT MONTHS IN JAIL AS A CHILD?

She's not innocent if she commits assault and battery. Which she indisputably did. I'm not sure why that's confusing you.

 

[Leumas]

Let's be aware that Leumas is now openly agreeing with/rationalizing the actions of 10/7.

When one explains the objective facts of a situation... it is an irrational strawmanning to say that one is condoning or rationalizing anything.

Pointing out FACTS of REALITY is neither condoning it nor rationalizing it...
and I am sure that you jolly well know that.... but you elected to go ahead and strawman anyway.

And honestly, in the streets of Los Angeles, New York DC, London, Paris, etc, hundreds of thousands are also agreeing.

No they are not... they are saying that Sippenhaftung is a heinously immoral action... and war crime.

What those people are saying is that it is legally and morally incumbent upon the descendants of Nazi hideous horrors to refrain from doing to the parents and children of the victims of their Settler Colonialist project what the NAZIs did to their parents and grand parents.

In fact, during a screening of a film showing the extent of the atrocities, outside the Holocaust Educational facility, Israeli flags being displayed were sufficient reason for kefiyya-masked men to attack the Jews.

And that is disgusting... but do you think it is moral for the victim of abuse to keep playing the victim card in order to justify and rationalize his own latest out of numerous bouts of dishing out abuses.

If Jews continue to be molested, attacked, killed, and their businesses/homes/houses of worship defaced and/or shot up, I'm here to tell you that at some point, people are going to open live fire at the perpetrators of these violent actions.

Ah so now you are condoning and rationalizing the heinous actions of Hamas... or is it only Zionists who are allowed to do what you describe above but their victims are not???

Next Tuesday might be the Crossing of the Rubicon towards that.

So what you are saying is that only Israel is allowed to carry out Sippenhaftung on people who cross the Rubicon but its victims are not allowed to do the same?

Perhaps... maybe if Israel reflected and considered the immorality of its repeated and relentless numerous "crossings of the Rubicon" for decades upon decades of abuse wreaked upon the victims of its Settler Colonialist project... maybe it would stop doing it for a change????

 

[webfusion]

https://twitter.com/markcurtis30/status/1722542822455185705

"80% of MPs back Israel's war on Gaza. 76% of the public want a ceasefire."

That split is explained by those in power, who in a war, would not have to do the dying, want war. Those not in power, who would do the dying, want a ceasefire.

I had to open the link to even understand that what you were describing/claiming is NOT a poll of Israeli attitudes, but rather, the UK.

A bit dishonest, if you ask me, but whatever...

As for a ceasefire in-place, has it not occurred to anyone that once such a thing happens (and it will, eventually) the Israelis may just say, OK, we're here, you're over there. We're going to erect a fenceline along the ceasefire 'borders' (armistice lines) and call it a day.

That's what happened in 1949.
(Rhodes Ceasefire)

 

[Leumas]

That's really not a parallel situation, at all.

Yes it is a perfectly parallel situation... special pleading for one's own case while decrying the same from others is an irrational fallacy.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes it is a perfectly parallel situation...

Hardly.

special pleading for one's own case while decrying the same from others is an irrational fallacy.

It's not special pleading to say you should argue the actual case under consideration instead of something else in its place. You're really bad at logic.

 

[theprestige]

https://twitter.com/markcurtis30/status/1722542822455185705

"80% of MPs back Israel's war on Gaza. 76% of the public want a ceasefire."

That split is explained by those in power, who in a war, would not have to do the dying, want war. Those not in power, who would do the dying, want a ceasefire.

The UK public would do the dying in a war between Israel and Gaza? What nonsense are you trying to peddle, here?

 

[Hercules56]

Let's be aware that Leumas is now openly agreeing with/rationalizing the actions of 10/7.
And honestly, in the streets of Los Angeles, New York DC, London, Paris, etc, hundreds of thousands are also agreeing.

In fact, during a screening of a film showing the extent of the atrocities, outside the Holocaust Educational facility, Israeli flags being displayed were sufficient reason for kefiyya-masked men to attack the Jews.

If Jews continue to be molested, attacked, killed, and their businesses/homes/houses of worship defaced and/or shot up, I'm here to tell you that at some point, people are going to open live fire at the perpetrators of these violent actions.

Next Tuesday might be the Crossing of the Rubicon towards that.

Are you advocating murdering unarmed civilians?

 

[theprestige]

Are you advocating murdering unarmed civilians?

No, but Hamas is.

Proportionate attacks on military targets hiding behind human shields is not murder. Using human shields in warfare is murder. We've been over this. You don't even dispute it.

 

[Leumas]

Are you advocating murdering unarmed civilians?

No, but Hamas is.

So is Israel... and doing it too and has been doing it for decades upon decades... long before Hamas.

Proportionate attacks on military targets hiding behind human shields is not murder.

So the murderer gets to define what constitutes murder and presto he is not a murderer any longer... :sdL:

Using human shields in warfare is murder.

Yes... and so is willfully killing the "human shields".

If a fleeing bank robber deliberately runs into a crowded shop... what do you call the police who start shooting at him regardless of the people around him?

 

[Ziggurat]

If a fleeing bank robber deliberately runs into a crowded shop... what do you call the police who start shooting at him regardless of the people around him?

Civil crime is fundamentally different than war. And criminals are fundamentally different than enemy combatants. You can't just shoot a bank robber even if no one else is around, but you can just shoot an enemy soldier during war.

Your analogies are always wrong. Your inability to argue in any other way is quite telling.