General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Leumas]

I have no particular axe to grind with the PLO/PNA right now. (the PLO -- Fatah -- is not equal to the PNA, but rather, one party in a coalition of government, which, honestly, also includes the political branch of Hamas!)

So you have an axe to grind with the terrorists called Hamas... but not with the other terrorist called PLO?? Even though they are in together on their terrorism past and present?

Wow!!!

It was you, however, that indicated they are wrong.

The very fabric of their existence is wrong.

I merely suggested you could contact them, and explain your position.

I do not need to contact a terrorist organization, whose address you seem to know well, in order to explain why their very existence is an atrocious wrong.

Be sure to say that you're providing the correct information to them in order to dispel "the propaganda and lies repeated even by the ignorant clueless Palestinians themselves."

I am amazed at how much you want to defend this terrorist organization's errors... wow!!!


Why?

ETA: that is a rhetorical question... I know exactly why.

 

[Planigale]

Hercules56, you apparently misunderstand the nature of HAMAS.

The head of the CIA William Burns has now arrived in Israel. Also, an unusual announcement was made by the Pentagon that a nuclear-armed sub is now positioned in the eastern Med.

If you think that this war is just an exercise in futility by the IDF, I'm pretty sure you're going to find out otherwise.

Israel is fighting for it's life. That's just the way it is. We cannot continue with this threat over our heads (literally).
It is a mistake for pundits to invent scenarios that assume a “day after” as if this were a conventional war that will clearly and cleanly give way to agreed or imposed postwar arrangements.

Gazan governance may be so seriously undermined that political disintegration accompanied by social and economic deterioration are far more likely than any ideal (or even manageable) arrangements.

This is a SSGN, which essentially is equipped witth cruise missiles, most of which (if not all) will have conventional war heads. They are also equiped to deliver special forces, there is a possibility they may be there to potentially deliver a SEAL team as part of a hostage rescue mission, but more likely just for the added ability to deliver cruise missiles.

 

[webfusion]

Leumas, I have indicated already that Hamas is a political/religious group and they will likely have some level of influence in any future configuration of PalestineState organization.
Personally, I feel they can add a lot to the post-war efforts, provided they stick to purely adminstrative tasks (issuing driver's licenses and building/zoning permits and such).

PLO is asking not to be considered anymore a terrorist group.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/men...as-tells-biden-during-visit-to-east-jerusalem

I easily got that address from google.
Apparently, there is actually no office open currently because the PLO is not allowed by American law to have such a mission in the USA.

It's a good thing you aren't gonna let them have a piece of your mind, the letter would have been returned "Addressee Unknown"

The POTUS visited and sat down with AbuMazen, cordially and with respect.
I'm OK with that.

Who do you think is going to run things in the NewState of Palestine, should such an entity arise?
Got a name to offer? I recall, years ago, during Arafat's reign, there was a guy, Khaled Salaam (Muhammed Rashid). I liked his style. Corrupt to the core, but he got things done, and greatly influenced Arafat to return from exile in Tunisia and enter Gaza. In fact, the entire impetus of that period in 1994 was "Gaza First" along with Jericho, where Salaam became a partner with Sol Kirzner in the Oasis Casino there).
https://greenolivetours.com/the-tale-of-jerichos-oasis-casino

 

[webfusion]

This is a SSGN, which essentially is equipped witth cruise missiles, most of which (if not all) will have conventional war heads. They are also equiped to deliver special forces, there is a possibility they may be there to potentially deliver a SEAL team as part of a hostage rescue mission, but more likely just for the added ability to deliver cruise missiles.

How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'

 

[Leumas]

Please explain why the Palestinians are not Arabs,

It is called HISTORY and FACTS of reality... instead of propaganda and distorted myths.

... and its offensive and ignorant to label them as such.

You still have not read my post... please read it... slowly and carefully and show me where I said your strawmanning of it?

 

[lobosrul5]

How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'

I actually came to the same conculstion that Planigale did. He's probably right. But, we don't know that. Theres simply no reason to put one of the 14 SSBN's in the eastern med. However, its just speculation, I do not hold a security clearance and have no proof.

 

[theprestige]

How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'

An SSBN in the Med wouldn't make sense. An SSGN would. I call this an appeal to credibility.

 

[Leumas]

Hmmm, even the UN calls them "Palestinian Arabs".

https://www.un.org/unispal/history/

Yes... and they also call the Moroccans and Algerians and Tunisians and Egyptians and Syrians and Mauritanians and the Somalis and the Sudanese the same thing... do you know anything about history or geography?

These writings were written ca 430 BCE (that is before common era)....

THE FIRST BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED CLIO

• 105. Thence they went on to invade Egypt; and when they were in Syria which is called Palestine, Psammetichos king of Egypt met them; and by gifts and entreaties he turned them from their purpose, so that they…

THE SECOND BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED EUTERPE

• 104. For the people of Colchis are evidently Egyptian, and this I perceived for myself before I heard it from others. So when I had come to consider the matter I asked them both; and the Colchians had remembrance of the Egyptians more than the Egyptians of the Colchians; but the Egyptians said they believed that the Colchians were a portion of the army of Sesostris. That this was so I conjectured myself not only because they are dark-skinned and have curly hair (this of itself amounts to nothing, for there are other races which are so), but also still more because the Colchians, Egyptians, and Ethiopians alone of all the races of men have practised circumcision from the first. The Phenicians and the Syrians who dwell in Palestine confess themselves that…
  
  
• 106. The pillars which Sesostris of Egypt set up in the various countries are for the most part no longer to be seen extant; but in Syria Palestine I myself saw them existing with the inscription upon them which I have mentioned and the emblem. Moreover in Ionia there are…

THE THIRD BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED THALEIA

• 5. Now by this way only is there a known entrance to Egypt: for from Phenicia to the borders of the city of Cadytis belongs to the Syrians who are called of Palestine, and…
  
  
• 91. From that division which begins with the city of Posideion, founded by Amphilochos the son of Amphiaraos on the borders of the Kilikians and the Syrians, and extends as far as Egypt, not including the territory of the Arabians (for this was free from payment), the amount was three hundred and fifty talents; and in this division are the whole of Phenicia and Syria which is called Palestine and Cyprus…

Book II Part 3
Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them. The following facts all of them support our theory that it is some earthy stuff in the water which makes it salt.

In the time [reign] of Apis son of Phoroneus a part of the Egyptian army was expelled from Egypt, who took up their abode not far from Arabia in the part of Syria called Palestine

Quoted in Diodorus Siculus's Bibliotheca Historica ca 35 BCE and in Strabo's Geographica ca 7 BCE
Near (Tiran) island is a promontory, which stretches towards the Rock of the Nabataeans and Palestine.

Why tell how the white dove sacred to the Syrians flies unharmed through the crowded cities of Palestine?

 

[lobosrul5]

Can you please leave the scripture quotes etc for the religious sub-forum?

 

[Leumas]

Can you please leave the scripture quotes etc for the religious sub-forum?

Are you directing that comment at me or someone else?

Are you saying that The Histories by Herodotus the father of the field of HISTORY is a religious scripture???

What about a book called Greek Histories by Polemon of Athens.... or Meteorology by Aristotle... or a book called Geographica by Strabo... or a book called Bibliotheca Historica by Diodorus Siculus.

 

[Planigale]

How do you know this?
What is the name of that sub? The Pentagon did not announce it publicly.
There are 14 Ohio-class vessels equipped with ballistic missiles. It could be one of those, or it could be one of the 4 retrofitted with cruise-launch capabilities.

If you somehow have details about which particular sub is now in the area, that would be a 'scoop'

I cannot disclose my sources but there are publicly available sources such as the USN. Anyway they look different and there are photos showing the submarine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nav...n-mediterranean-israel-gaza-2023-11?r=US&IR=T

https://twitter.com/PatrickMcSwain2/status/1721369877834064174

 

[webfusion]

I cannot disclose my sources but there are publicly available sources such as the USN. Anyway they look different and there are photos showing the submarine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nav...n-mediterranean-israel-gaza-2023-11?r=US&IR=T

https://twitter.com/PatrickMcSwain2/status/1721369877834064174

The first link states it's a SSBN, right in the URL.
From your second 'source' (X)
"The opponents will have to assume SSBN (ballistic missile)."

 

[webfusion]

I actually came to the same conclusion that Planigale did. He's (She's?) probably right. But, we don't know that. Theres simply no reason to put one of the 14 SSBN's in the eastern med. However, its just speculation, I do not hold a security clearance and have no proof.

Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.

That being said, from the images, theres a Dry Shelter on the deck, an indication this vessel is one of the four cruise missile variants -- USS Florida, USS Georgia, USS Michigan, or USS Ohio.
(That structure covers several of the forward launch tubes, which have been repurposed for storage)
Also, it makes sense that the Navy sent a sub with an Mk 8 SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) mini-submarine.

 

[lobosrul5]

Double post. Ooops.

 

[lobosrul5]

Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.

That being said, from the images, theres a Dry Shelter on the deck, an indication this vessel is one of the four cruise missile variants -- USS Florida, USS Georgia, USS Michigan, or USS Ohio.
(That structure covers several of the forward launch tubes, which have been repurposed for storage)
Also, it makes sense that the Navy sent a sub with an Mk 8 SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) mini-submarine.

It'd be very odd indeed to move a boomer into the eastern med to scare Iran. First off, its not the closest navigable international body of water to Iran. And secondly, the range of Trident II's is (at least) 7,500 miles.

 

[webfusion]

It'd be very odd indeed to move a boomer into the eastern med to scare Iran. First off, its not closest navigable international body of water to Iran. And secondly, the range of Trident II's is (at least) 7,500 miles.

Your statement seems contradictory.

If the range of the ballistic ordnance is 7500 miles, why would it be necessary to operate (or launch) within the "closest navigable body of water to Iran"? The distance to Tehran from Tel Aviv is about 1000 miles.
Tomahawk cruise missiles (with a range of about 1500 miles) are relatively slow and not that hard to shoot down by any modern fighter jet.

Not that this is really vital to this discussion, but Israel has several subs of its own, with cruise missile capabilties. (German-built 209 class)

Also, in researching this, I note that American B1 Lancer bomber is also flying high above the region.

 

[lobosrul5]

Your statement seems contradictory.
If the range of the ballistic ordnance is 7500 miles, why would it be necessary to operate (or launch) within the "closest navigable body of water to Iran"? The distance to Tehran from Tel Aviv is about 1000 miles.
Tomahawk cruise missiles (with a range of about 1500 miles) are relatively slow and not that hard to shoot down by any modern fighter jet.

Not that this is really vital to this discussion, but Israel has several subs of its own, with cruise missile capabilties. (German-built 209 class)

Also, in researching this, I note that American B1 Lancer bomber is also flying high above the region.

Yes! Its contradictory, is why it makes no sense. If the Navy was trying to put fear into Iran they'd park a boomer off their coast. Even though they don't need to, due to the missiles range. Why put one in the eastern med, theres no reason to even get it that close to Iran, but its not REALLY close either?! It makes no sense. We're also not going to nuke Hezbollah on the Israeli border... we might send a couple hundred Tomahawks their way though.

 

[Hercules56]

Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.

That being said, from the images, theres a Dry Shelter on the deck, an indication this vessel is one of the four cruise missile variants -- USS Florida, USS Georgia, USS Michigan, or USS Ohio.
(That structure covers several of the forward launch tubes, which have been repurposed for storage)
Also, it makes sense that the Navy sent a sub with an Mk 8 SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) mini-submarine.

On the contrary, the warning is clearly directed towards Tel Aviv. The message?

"If you nuke Gaza, we will nuke you. So mind your manners."

 

[theprestige]

The first link states it's a SSBN, right in the URL.

The article at the first link says explicitly "[a]lthough they declined to name the vessel, a Navy spokesperson told Insider it is a guided-missile sub (SSGN), not a ballistic-missile sub (SSBN), which most of the Ohio-class subs are. The apparent dry deck shelter used for special operations purposes is a giveaway though, as the Ohio-class SSGNs carry that."

This makes sense, since the US would have far more need to deploy cruise missiles and special forces in the region, than nuclear missiles.

 

[theprestige]

Iran is ostensibly the country this 'warning' is addressed to. It's in range of the ballistic weaponry on board the Boomer. So, yeah, maybe theres yer reason.

The US is not sending SSBNs into the Med to threaten Iran with a nuclear attack. That's just... I'm sorry, but that's just a stupid hypothesis.