Luton Airport Car Park Fire

[JayUtah]

Yes, highly inflammable because of what they were attached to.

No.

How does a fire from a car parked in a drive way separate from the parking bays, leap to the cars in the parking bays and crash blazing to the floor below?

By means of burning, flowing fuel from ruptured fuel tanks.

We know what happened at Liverpool, a burning fuel line.

Groping for irrelevant comparisons is not a substitute for understanding the physical principles involved.

If petrol car fires were uncommon in t'days of yore, then diesel cars would be even less so, given petrol is far more volatile than diesel.

Not a relevant fact in these circumstances.

So a diesel car burnt down Luton Airport car park within half an hour of setting the entire floor ablaze in ten minutes, with a flaming car plunging through the concrete floor.

Your inability to grasp the relevant facts and your subsequent puzzlement over how something happened does not translate into a legitimate concern.

Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

 

[JayUtah]

And no, I am still not sobbing into my handkerchief.

But you are still clutching your pearls and pretending that all your declarations made in ignorance indicates anything but your ignorance.

 

[Vixen]

No.



By means of burning, flowing fuel from ruptured fuel tanks.



Groping for irrelevant comparisons is not a substitute for understanding the physical principles involved.



Not a relevant fact in these circumstances.



Your inability to grasp the relevant facts and your subsequent puzzlement over how something happened does not translate into a legitimate concern.

Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

How did the tanks in the cars parked in the parking bays away from the offending vehicle get to reach the point of rupture? How do you know there was a fuel leak? You'd need a rupture in the fuel system in the offending vehicle first.

 

[JayUtah]

How did the tanks in the cars parked in the parking bays away from the offending vehicle get to reach the point of rupture? How do you know there was a fuel leak? You'd need a rupture in the fuel system in the offending vehicle first.

If by "offending vehicle" you mean the vehicle that first caught fire, we know that was a diesel-fueled vehicle. However we do not know what part of that vehicle caught fire or why. You would be mistaken to assume that the first thing to catch fire and burn in a vehicle is its fuel. But when the heat from that fire—whatever is burning—reaches a certain intensity, some part of its fuel system will fail. This will result in burning diesel fuel spreading to nearby combustibles.

This is not that difficult a concept. Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

I wonder if there's a collective noun for bollocks? If not, there should be.

Suggestions welcome.

A spaffing?

A bawbag?

A box (think cricket)?

 

[Andy_Ross]

We will have to wait for the Bedfordshire Fire Brigade report into Luton. Sometime in 2024, hopefully.

They have already confirmed it started with a diesel car

 

[Andy_Ross]

Liverpool car park fire:

BBC 1.1 2019

Two hours before evacuation of fire personnel.

Luton car park fire:

BBC

First 999 call 20:47, 'within minutes' circa 21:00 entire third floor alight. TEN MINUTES!!! according to above independent eye witness.

Hopkinson confirmed to BBC a 'major incident' was declared at 21:38 and 100 firefighters having to fight the blaze from the outside of the building. Liverpool firefighters managed to keep it up from the car park stairwells for nigh on two hours before admitting defeat.

Which means nothing. It's already been confirmed it started with a diesel car.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Look, we know the fire brigade disowned the use of polystyrene ceiling tiles (remember those) because of how alarmingly rapidly they caught fire. Yes, highly inflammable because of what they were attached to. How does a fire from a car parked in a drive way separate from the parking bays, leap to the cars in the parking bays and crash blazing to the floor below? We know what happened at Liverpool, a burning fuel line. But the blaze there spread upwards first. That was the point the fire fighters withdrew. They had ample time to evacuate the horses and dogs from the lower level.

If petrol car fires were uncommon in t'days of yore, then diesel cars would be even less so, given petrol is far more volatile than diesel.

So a diesel car burnt down Luton Airport car park within half an hour of setting the entire floor ablaze in ten minutes, with a flaming car plunging through the concrete floor.

It was started by a diesel car. This has been confirmed by the fire service.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I understood all of that perfectly thanks. Nice try at more strawmen.

And no, I am still not sobbing into my handkerchief.

ETA: as for your last point you are now talking cross purposes because we were discussing building regulations to do with fire spreading not the amount of smoke, a new topic you have just introduced.

It started with a diesel car, the fire service have confirmed it. Have a look at the official website.

 

[Andy_Ross]

How did the tanks in the cars parked in the parking bays away from the offending vehicle get to reach the point of rupture? How do you know there was a fuel leak? You'd need a rupture in the fuel system in the offending vehicle first.

When the fire spread to the fuel tank of the first vehicle, it melted and fuel flowed out. How do you think?

As for other cars, being stood in burning fuel would tend to set the plastic parts on fire, you know, tyres, bumpers, grill, trim, under tray, fuel tanks.

We know it was a diesel car that was first to burn, it's been confirmed by the fire service.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Liverpool car park fire:

BBC 1.1 2019

Two hours before evacuation of fire personnel.

Luton car park fire:

BBC

First 999 call 20:47, 'within minutes' circa 21:00 entire third floor alight. TEN MINUTES!!! according to above independent eye witness.

Hopkinson confirmed to BBC a 'major incident' was declared at 21:38 and 100 firefighters having to fight the blaze from the outside of the building. Liverpool firefighters managed to keep it up from the car park stairwells for nigh on two hours before admitting defeat.

This appears to be a reiteration of your point about the different times it took the fires to become severe rather to support your claim about their comparative severity.

 

[zooterkin]

Here's the thing: the whole thing at Luton was uncontrollable within fifty minutes!

Hello? Ground control to Major Tom? Are we grokking yet?

We will have to wait for the Bedfordshire Fire Brigade report into Luton. Sometime in 2024, hopefully.

Again, please choose a story and stick to it.

 

[Vixen]

Yeah, some of those lend themselves nicely to making up some Cockney Rhyming Slang -

<snip coarse language>[/I]

So now we are onto the 'F-Bomb Logical Fallacy':

The "F-Bomb" (also Cursing; Obscenity; Profanity). An adolescent fallacy of pathos, attempting to defend or strengthen one's argument with gratuitous, unrelated sexual, obscene, vulgar, crude or profane language when such language does nothing to make an argument stronger, other than perhaps to create a sense of identity with certain young male "urban" audiences.

https://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm

 

[Vixen]

When the fire spread to the fuel tank of the first vehicle, it melted and fuel flowed out. How do you think?

As for other cars, being stood in burning fuel would tend to set the plastic parts on fire, you know, tyres, bumpers, grill, trim, under tray, fuel tanks.

We know it was a diesel car that was first to burn, it's been confirmed by the fire service.

Doesn't exclude a hybrid lithium-ion battery.

How long do you think it takes for a plastic tank to melt? Do you really believe that will happen in ten minutes?

Fuel tanks are made of two types of plastic that are coextruded together to make a sandwich of plastics with HDPE on the two outer layers and Nylon (PA) used for the inner layer. The nylon gives impermeability to the container so no fumes or gas can escape

HDPE melts at 150 - 180 Celsius while PA melts at 220 - 250 Celsius.

This difference in temperature range may mean that the HDPE will degrade while being heated upto the higher temperature the PA requires.

https://qr.ae/pKYRCH

Do the maths.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Look, we know the fire brigade disowned the use of polystyrene ceiling tiles (remember those) because of how alarmingly rapidly they caught fire. Yes, highly inflammable because of what they were attached to.

I don't think disowned was the term you intended but anyway although they didn't recommend the use of polystyrene ceiling tiles what they what they very strongly recommended against was the fashion for fitting and then painting them. That left a flammable layer which was very much inclined to melt and drip burning drops all over a room in the event of a fire. The tiles were inflammable because of what they were made from, not because they were fixed to plastered ceilings.

How does a fire from a car parked in a drive way separate from the parking bays, leap to the cars in the parking bays

Not far separated at all. Certainly not far enough that the cars parked next to it would not ignite.

... and crash blazing to the floor below?

You don't know which bit of floor failed first. It could have been an entirely different area of the floor. You don't even know how many hours passed before any floor fell.

If petrol car fires were uncommon in t'days of yore, then diesel cars would be even less so, given petrol is far more volatile than diesel.

Instead of simplistic armchair detective wot-I-reckon, you could look at the statistics for car fires by fuel type.

So a diesel car burnt down Luton Airport car park within half an hour of setting the entire floor ablaze in ten minutes, with a flaming car plunging through the concrete floor.

You're like someone standing incredulously by a large bonfire and arguing that one tiny match couldn't possibly be responsible.

A diesel car started the Luton airport blaze, that part's true. If you have references for the whole floor being well alight in ten minutes and the structure failing in forty minutes I'm sure we'd be happy to see them, but that's not a claim I'm making. Nor do I know how many floor panels fell in total nor how many cars fell with them.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Doesn't exclude a hybrid lithium-ion battery.

That is excluded by the declaration from the fire brigade that it was a diesel car and not a hybrid.

 

[JayUtah]

Doesn't exclude a hybrid lithium-ion battery.

That is excluded. The vehicle in which the fire started was diesel-fueled.

How long do you think it takes for a plastic tank to melt? Do you really believe that will happen in ten minutes?

Yes, I believe a plastic fuel tank can be heated to the point of rupture in ten minutes of sustained proximal combustion from a mixture of Class A and B combustibles.

Do the maths.

Why don't you? You've listed the melting point of various polymers, but you haven't presented the necessary heat-transfer computations to dispute the suggested heating profile.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

How long do you think it takes for a plastic tank to melt? Do you really believe that will happen in ten minutes?

Do the maths.

What maths do you propose doing? Seriously. Consider the major plastic parts of the cars in those car fire videos you're carefully avoiding polluting your eyes with. Those parts are reduced to burning puddles in very short order.

Do you imagine a fuel tank is immune to that because the fire needs to heat the tank and the fuel inside before it will fail? Think again. Consider how much of the tank wall is not in contact with fuel. The space above the fuel and the filler neck are not cooled by fuel inside and will melt and burn like other plastics. Once the tank is breached, the fuel will ignite in short order.

If you want to do some maths for us I'll be happy to see it.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I humbly suggest vixen won't "do the maths" herself because she's not actually able to do heat transfer computations, and as per usual assumed because she can't no one can.

Not everyone is on the same level as you vixen, some people simply know more and understand better. You're not the teacher and you're certainly not the smartest person in the room. Your fragile ego statements that you're six steps ahead show just how upset you are getting about people pointing out that you're a failure though.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I understood all of that perfectly thanks. Nice try at more strawmen.

I can point to every single post in which you make statements supporting all of those things, you complete and utter liar.

Like this one:

You thought diesel fuel needed a an oily rag and a leaf blower to ignite, but I showed you a video of diesel being ignited with a wooden match.

And here you are actually saying it:

If you recall, a poster tried to claim that you could start a diesel fire easily but omitted to mention the lit rag soaked in kerosene and application of a leaf blower to do so.

And here's the video demonstrating that you can, in fact, light diesel oil with a wooden kitchen match: (you have yet to comment on this video)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7soVqy...c2VsIGZpcmU=

You're just confirming that you use words like "strawman" and "ad hominem" as smoke bombs when you're trying to distract attention from the failures of your arguments.

And no, I am still not sobbing into my handkerchief.

No, you're just so insecure that you think someone wondering what misconceptions might be underlying your arguments is being mean to you.

ETA: as for your last point you are now talking cross purposes because we were discussing building regulations to do with fire spreading not the amount of smoke, a new topic you have just introduced.

Yes, I have introduced it, because clearly you didn't think about it yourself. In fact, the very slope of the parking garage's levels will allow hot gasses to flow away from the fire, drawing fresh air in to feed it.