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Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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If HAMAS was white national terroist group, would a lot of the posters here be so understanding> I doubt it.
 
Iran;s president said Israel has crossed the Red Line.
Of course this just be more Iranian bluster, but if he is being serious, this war is about to get alot bigger.
 
dudalb said:
As long a HAMAS reamins in power in Gaza there will be no way forward out of this morass.
problem with the Left is they don't get HAMAS Is a group of religious fanatics, not a slightly misguided revolutionary group. That is a huge difference between them and the IRA.
Click to expand...

As a "Progressive" and part of "the Left," I offer to you an eyeroll.
 
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dudalb said:
As long a HAMAS reamins in power in Gaza there will be no way forward out of this morass.
problem with the Left is they don't get HAMAS Is a group of religious fanatics, not a slightly misguided revolutionary group. That is a huge difference between them and the IRA.
Click to expand...

Why do you support IRA terrorism?
 
Orphia Nay said:
Also from Al Jazeera liveblog:

At least 7,703 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli attacks since October 7. More than 1,400 people were killed in the Hamas attack on Israel.
Click to expand...

Didn't take the screeching "Unreliable!!" "Hamas Propaganda!1!!" to start did it.

I'll post the numbers from another very well-known Hamas supporter, Save The Children"

3195 children

dudalb said:
problem with the Left is they don't get HAMAS Is a group of religious fanatics, not a slightly misguided revolutionary group.
Click to expand...

Not only are you wrong, and have no realisation of being wrong, you actually have no idea how other people think. You are unable to understand that being anti-war and anti-Israel killing indiscriminately is not support for Hamas.

I have zero expectation of you ever understanding any of that point.
 
The Atheist said:
Didn't take the screeching "Unreliable!!" "Hamas Propaganda!1!!" to start did it.

I'll post the numbers from another very well-known Hamas supporter, Save The Children"

3195 children
Click to expand...

That seems comparable with what we know of Gaza demographics - 47% are under 18, so nearly half of the people killed are likely to be children.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206...t=The current war in Gaza,47.3%) are under 18.



Thermal said:
AP is also repeating the body count, pointing out that the Gaza Health Ministry's counts have stood to scrutiny in the past, even concurring with Israel's.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
Click to expand...

Good article. Some minor discrepancies in figures between Israel and Gaza Health Ministry, but overall in agreement.
 
dudalb said:
Iran;s president said Israel has crossed the Red Line.
Of course this just be more Iranian bluster, but if he is being serious, this war is about to get alot bigger.
Click to expand...

There is internet chatter now going viral that a ballistic missile headed towards Israel was intercepted over the Red Sea.
Iranian-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are now joining this war.

IAF is also going after Iranian assets in Syria.
 
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Orphia Nay said:
That seems comparable with what we know of Gaza demographics - 47% are under 18, so nearly half of the people killed are likely to be children.
Click to expand...
Sure, especially when the IAF attacks places where Hamas guys live, and their entire family is destroyed.
If you are a Hamas leader, and a bomb drops on your head, the people around you are going to be hit.
Including all your children, grandchildren, cousins, nephews, nieces, second-cousins twice removed, and even neighbors. Hmmmmmm, Hamas deciding to go to war has resulted in some major drawbacks, like that.
Good article. Some minor discrepancies in figures between Israel and Gaza Health Ministry, but overall in agreement.
Click to expand...

I think we can all stop counting at this point.
You want to keep a running tally? How about 10,000 20,000 42,000. 87,000.
At what point will Hamas recognize that they are losing this war, and the cost is too high for the people of Gaza, and that surrender is the best way to avoid any further carnage?
Is the word 'surrender' even in their vocabulary?
If not, why not?
 
webfusion said:
Sure, especially when the IAF attacks places where Hamas guys live, and their entire family is destroyed.
If you are a Hamas leader, and a bomb drops on your head, the people around you are going to be hit.
Including all your children, grandchildren, cousins, nephews, nieces, second-cousins twice removed, and even neighbors. Hmmmmmm, Hamas deciding to go to war has resulted in some major drawbacks, like that.


I think we can all stop counting at this point.
You want to keep a running tally? How about 10,000 20,000 42,000. 87,000.
At what point will Hamas recognize that they are losing this war, and the cost is too high for the people of Gaza, and that surrender is the best way to avoid any further carnage?
Is the word 'surrender' even in their vocabulary?
If not, why not?
Click to expand...

Well, that seems to have massively escalated, a bit like Israel's retaliation.

You're shooting the messenger. I just reported the figures. Why do you want to stop counting?
 
Orphia Nay said:
Well, that seems to have massively escalated, a bit like Israel's retaliation.

You're shooting the messenger. I just reported the figures. Why do you want to stop counting?
Click to expand...

Israel is not retaliating, Israel is counter-attacking. There's a difference.

I think we should all stop tallying, because it plays into the hands of Hamas, and bolsters those who say the Israelis are killing too many civilians. From my view, when the body count in Gaza reaches the 250,000 mark, I'll listen to any and all 'humanitarian' concerns. Until then, Hamas has an option to choose which direction they want to go in. Surrender needs to be introduced into the discussion, and they need to be aware that Israel is going to continue ignoring the demands this time of ceasefire. Or hudna. If you know anything about Benny Gantz, you'll realize he is in this to win this.

Protests in the streets of your cities, and on campuses, are YOUR problem to deal with.
You don't like the closure of the Brooklyn Bridge? Prohibit those kinds of demonstrations.
You aren't happy with the attacks on Jews at your universities? With Jewish businesses painted with swastikas? With aircraft on tarmacs being swarmed by people hunting for Jewish/Israeli passengers?
You don't appreciate that Grand Central Station is overwhelmed by mobs?
Those are YOUR internal matters to be worried about. (We sympathize with everyone's concerns, but that sympathy and three-fifty will get ya a cup of coffee at Dunkin')

There's a point when we Jews (in Israel and elsewhere) simply say "Public Opinion no longer matters..."
 
Thermal said:
AP is also repeating the body count, pointing out that the Gaza Health Ministry's counts have stood to scrutiny in the past, even concurring with Israel's.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
Click to expand...

I was curious about this, so I did some digging. From your source:

AP said:
In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

— 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.
Click to expand...

So... where's this 1,385 figure the UN came up with? I've been googling, and I can't find it in any UN source. I see multiple press references to it but they only attribute it to the UN without sourcing it. But I did come pretty darn close in this document from the UN:
Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict

I couldn't find a death toll of 1,385 anywhere, but I did find a reference to a death toll of 1,387, which is pretty darn close. So maybe the difference was just a typo, the difference is small enough that it doesn't really change anything, but if this is the source, it's rather telling that so many press references carry the same typo.

But let's look at the substance of that reference for some more details. It's on page 90 of that document.

United Nations said:
352. The Mission received statistics on the fatalities of the military operations from the Gaza authorities, specifically from the Central Commission for Documentation and Pursuit of Israeli War Criminals (TAWTHEQ),213 as well as from PCHR,214 Al Mezan215 and B’Tselem.216 The first three also provided lists of all the persons killed in the military operations, with their names, sex, age, address, occupation, and place and date of the fatal attack. Another NGO, Defence for Children International – Palestine Section,217 provided a list of all the children killed.

353. The three lists give different numbers. According to TAWTHEQ, 1,444 persons were killed. The two Palestinian NGOs provide a lower number, 1,417 victims according to PCHR and 1,409 according to Al Mezan, while B’Tselem mentions 1,387 victims. The Mission has not cross-checked the three lists. TAWTHEQ, PCHR, Al Mezan and B’Tselem also provide disaggregated data.
Click to expand...

Now here's the real kicker, on page 91:

360. The Mission, not having investigated all incidents involving loss of life in the Gaza Strip, will not make findings regarding the overall number of persons killed nor regarding the percentage of civilians among those killed.
Click to expand...

The UN mission reported numbers provided to it by other organizations, but they EXPLICITLY deny making any claim themselves. Which makes the AP claim that "the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records" rather suspect. Was there some other United Nations investigation? I don't think so, I can't find any, and the AP certainly doesn't provide any way to check their claim. So their conclusion that Hamas numbers have historically been reliable is a bit suspect at this point.

But that's not the end of it either. The AP, and pretty much every other English language press outfit, claimed that Hamas reported 500 deaths. But that's quite possibly not even what Hamas claimed. Hamas may have only claimed 500 casualties/victims, which includes both dead and injured.

https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote

Press fact checking on casualty figures is simply laughable. They basically just copy off each other, and the fact that they're repeating each other makes them all think that they've confirmed what they're reporting, when it's just an echo chamber.
 
webfusion said:
There is internet chatter now going viral that a ballistic missile headed towards Israel was intercepted over the Red Sea.
Iranian-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are now joining this war.

IAF is also going after Iranian assets in Syria.
Click to expand...


US Navy went after some of them on Thursday.
And last week US Warships shot down a cruise missile lauched from Yemen toward Israel. Is this a new launch?
State deparment just issued warning about the war expanding.
Things seem jto be heating uup.
 
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The Atheist said:
Didn't take the screeching "Unreliable!!" "Hamas Propaganda!1!!" to start did it.

I'll post the numbers from another very well-known Hamas supporter, Save The Children"

3195 children



Not only are you wrong, and have no realisation of being wrong, you actually have no idea how other people think. You are unable to understand that being anti-war and anti-Israel killing indiscriminately is not support for Hamas.

I have zero expectation of you ever understanding any of that point.
Click to expand...

You are anti Isreal, period.
I noicte you kept very quiet about the Oct 7th attack. Yo seem othave has littel concern for the Israeli childlern killed by HAMAS.
So what should Israeli have done after the Oct 7th attacks? Just surrender to HAMAS?
But you are very good exmaple of how hypocritcal the Left can be.
 
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dudalb said:
US Navy went after some of them on Thursday.
And last week, one US warship (USS Carney) shot down a cruise missile lauched from Yemen toward Israel.
Is this a new launch?
Click to expand...

Yes.
The IAF managed to intercept.
I don't have any details. but it probably was a Qiam/Burkan-2H/3 or perhaps a Ghadr-class rocket.

State department just issued warning about the war expanding.
Things seem to be heating up.
Click to expand...

In the north, Lebanon is watching the ruination of Gaza, and I guarantee they're not particularly keen on having the same treatment inflicted on their country. (Been There, Done That).
However, the fealty of the 'Party of Allah' to the mullahs of Tehran may override any concerns about opening the gates of hell.
 
Ziggurat, the reason I am against the death tolls being reported (like a baseball game score) is because the raw numbers themselves aren't telling the story correctly.
For instance, just as in past IDF battles in Gaza, there's no indication of the enemy combatants' fatalities.
 
webfusion said:
Israel is not retaliating, Israel is counter-attacking. There's a difference.

I think we should all stop tallying, because it plays into the hands of Hamas, and bolsters those who say the Israelis are killing too many civilians. From my view, when the body count in Gaza reaches the 250,000 mark, I'll listen to any and all 'humanitarian' concerns. Until then, Hamas has an option to choose which direction they want to go in. Surrender needs to be introduced into the discussion, and they need to be aware that Israel is going to continue ignoring the demands this time of ceasefire. Or hudna. If you know anything about Benny Gantz, you'll realize he is in this to win this.

Protests in the streets of your cities, and on campuses, are YOUR problem to deal with.
You don't like the closure of the Brooklyn Bridge? Prohibit those kinds of demonstrations.
You aren't happy with the attacks on Jews at your universities? With Jewish businesses painted with swastikas? With aircraft on tarmacs being swarmed by people hunting for Jewish/Israeli passengers?
You don't appreciate that Grand Central Station is overwhelmed by mobs?
Those are YOUR internal matters to be worried about. (We sympathize with everyone's concerns, but that sympathy and three-fifty will get ya a cup of coffee at Dunkin')

There's a point when we Jews (in Israel and elsewhere) simply say "Public Opinion no longer matters..."
Click to expand...

Are you seriously trying to compel people on a skeptics forum to be willfully ignorant?
 
NOTE: I recently posted something which used a Logical Fallacy (appeal from Authority, argumentum ab auctoritate) and it bugged me, knowing I had done so.

I'd mentioned my prior service in the IDF (during my 20's and 30's & being released from the Active Reserves as I turned 42) and used that information to bolster my bona-fides here in the discussions regarding my being pro-Israel in this current matter. (I had been accused of 'supporting' or rationalizing/justifying Hamas).

However, looking back on that posting, I realized that there was this logical error in it.
Although I served in the IDF, that alone is not evidence of my being OK with the Gaza war being waged. I say this, because obviously, there's Israelis who are against their government waging this battle with Hamas. One group not in favor of what's happening, "Combatants for Peace" is a good example.

Stay Skeptical, my friends.
Randi wouldn't have wanted us to act in any other way.
 
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