Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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Planigale said:
That worked well n WW1!
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It did work, actually. What didn't work was appeasement. Hence WW2.

But okay, let's push this analogy a little further. Gaza is Weimar Germany. Hamas is Adolf Hitler and the NASDAP. You're Neville Chamberlain, saying we should sacrifice Austria and Czechoslovakia for the sake of peace. I'm Winston Churchill, saying that won't get us peace, we're already on to Poland, and this time around can we please learn from history and ensure Poland actually wins their fight in spite of your efforts.
 
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Jedi said:
Israel isn't 'massacring' civilians. it's targeting specific buildings and warning civilians with leaflets/roof knocking beforehand.
you didn't answer the question of course, which is how should Israel respond "proportionately"?
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Can you evidence this claim for the current war?
 
TragicMonkey said:
Why? What is your motivation for understanding better what's going on over there?

If it's just knowledge for knowledge's sake, that's entertainment.
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Everything about my 40+ years in universities as well as the basics of an informed citizenry in a democracy says that's wrong, and it's cynical, too. Also, it's illogical, see below.
TragicMonkey said:
If you're learning in order to better direct your financial contributions to Hamas, or which weapons systems you're shipping to the IDF, or collecting data to present to your country's military intelligence for use in potential involvement then that wouldn't be entertainment.

I'm not saying outsider curiosity is bad, I'm just saying it serves no function in the actual conflict between the parties actually involved.
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Of course it serves no (direct) function for the parties involved.
TragicMonkey said:
It's the difference between me admiring Saturn through a telescope and a NASA engineer plotting a course for a robot probe to go there. The former will result in zero outcome outside my own entertainment, the latter will result in action.
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Entertainment is not the only option logically available, especially if you don't re-define entertainment past all usefulness.
 
JoeMorgue said:
That you'll believe? No.
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It's the classic woo gambit.

"If they really went to the moon, they'd have Evidence A to show for it."

"Here's Evidence A. How did you not know about Evidence A? Evidence A has been part of the public record since literally forever."

"Actually, Evidence A doesn't count. And it's probably fake. And what I'm really looking for is Evidence B."
 
Ziggurat said:
You have not established that Israel blew up that lorry. Anything from the Gaza Health Ministry is from Hamas. They've been caught lying about casualties and responsibility before. Yet you assume they're telling the truth this time, with no verification at all.

Gee, I wonder why I think you've got an anti-Israel bias.
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Has the IDF denied it?
 
Paul2 said:
Everything about my 40+ years in universities as well as the basics of an informed citizenry in a democracy says that's wrong, and it's cynical, too. Also, it's illogical, see below.
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I don't see anything below that demonstrates my suggestion is illogical. As for it being wrong, that's an assertion as well. Can you back it up?

Cynical, I'll grant.

Of course it serves no (direct) function for the parties involved.
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In my opinion that makes it useless to the parties involved.

Entertainment is not the only option logically available, especially if you don't re-define entertainment past all usefulness.
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Then what is it? What does knowing more about a conflict achieve, if you are not involved in it in any functional way? You say it's not entertainment, then what is it?
 
theprestige said:
Why is it Israel's responsibility to make a statement every time Hamas spews something from its bunghole? Why do you give Hamas the benefit of the doubt, every single time they make an unevidenced claim?

It's almost like you're on Hamas's side.
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But I am not on Hamas's side.

It is interesting, people make a claim that Israel always warns civilians before killing them. I provide evidence that that is untrue, the people involved refuse to believe the evidence I provide and say they will not provide evidence to the contrary because I wouldn't believe it.

This is what is technically termed projection.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I don't see anything below that demonstrates my suggestion is illogical. As for it being wrong, that's an assertion as well. Can you back it up?
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As a few others have already implied, an informed citizenry in a democracy is a Good Thing. Also, and argumentation here or in other forums I frequent sharpens my thinking and my critical thinking skills. It teaches me humility when I see my thinking has gone astray - which happens very rarely, I'll grant. :D
TragicMonkey said:
Cynical, I'll grant.
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Respect.


TragicMonkey said:
In my opinion that makes it useless to the parties involved.
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Agreed.


TragicMonkey said:
Then what is it? What does knowing more about a conflict achieve, if you are not involved in it in any functional way? You say it's not entertainment, then what is it?
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See above.
 
Planigale said:
Has the IDF denied it?
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Hmmm, Financial Times says so.

Hamas pinned blame on Israel for striking a civilian convoy, claiming the attack killed more than 70 people and injured 200. Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, denied the allegations, telling the Financial Times the IDF didn’t “strike any location”. “Hamas is behind this, is using the death of Palestinian civilians for its vile political purposes.”
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Looks like several sources have provisionally concluded the open flatbed truck explosion was not IDF and the other explosion with the videos you get of a couple cars on fire in a less populated street could be.
 
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lobosrul5 said:
Are we gonna go from "IDF hasn't denied it so they did it", to "IDF has denied it so they did it"?
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I think we're going to go from "my opinion of the IDF would change if they denied it" to "whether they did it or not, denied it or not, I still think the IDF is evil".

ETA: I mean, Planigale's entire epistemology here is to provisionally believe every unevidenced claim from Hamas, and to interpret any temporary silence by the IDF as evidence of guilt. All while telling us she's not on Hamas's side.

Pull the other one, maybe it's got an AGM-114R9X attached.
 
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Paul2 said:
As a few others have already implied, an informed citizenry in a democracy is a Good Thing. Also, and argumentation here or in other forums I frequent sharpens my thinking and my critical thinking skills. It teaches me humility when I see my thinking has gone astray - which happens very rarely, I'll grant. :D
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I guess. I'm far too cynical about whether my vote matters or not: for most of my voting life I've lived in places that were always firmly to one party or the other, and my vote has always either been negated by the masses of my neighbors or just one more added to the already more-than-overwhelming tide.

As far as this forum argumentation goes, I'd have to say that the effect on me is to make arguing such matters in real life extremely tedious. As dreadful and crazy as most of the denizens here are, they are as a group rather more sophisticated than the general population (at least when it comes to arguing politics etc). Honestly, listening to my relatives or coworkers talk about issues is like hearing the toddler version of what was already said better here. Even the stuff I disagree with here is better said than most of what I hear elsewhere that I do agree with.
 
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