Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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The Great Zaganza said:
If people suffer and you could do something to help without having to suffer yourself, and you don't, I think you are morally culpable.
Especially if you work to make it hard for others to help, too.
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It's not obvious to me how you think this applies to the current situation.
 
Ziggurat said:
What makes you say that?



First off, very little crime is caused by people starving. Most crime is a result of a breakdown in social order, which is different than deprivation.



You say that like it means Israel is in the wrong somehow. But it doesn't. It just means Israel is stronger. But strength is not a sin, weakness is not a virtue, and in war, you have no obligation to limit your enemy's casualties to less than your own. Hamas certainly wants to kill more Jews, they're only limited by their capacity, not by choice.

Gazans keep getting killed because Hamas keeps attacking Israel and then hiding behind those civilians. If Hamas wasn't attacking Israel, the number of Gazan casualties would drop through the floor. Hamas doesn't care about casualties in Gaza. They aren't attacking Israel because of that. You're making excuses for them.

Lastly, two short video clips in one link. I don't know the words being said, but the sentiment is pretty obvious. And it encapsulates quite a lot about this conflict, as well as why my sympathy for Gaza is running dry.

https://twitter.com/biasbit/status/1716192072275779921
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But under international law you do have an obligation to minimise civilian casualties. It is a specified crime to deprive a population of food and water. It is a crime to settle occupied territory, to relocate populations, to try civilians in military courts
 
Yeah it's also a war crime to intentionally hide combatants inside a civilian populace so...
 
Over last 24 hours more than 700 Gazans killed including (according to IDF) 'several' Hamas members. Probably 100 civilians killed for every combatant / terrorist. So far over 2,000 Gaza children killed. Over 300 children killed in last 24 hours, perhaps 50 children killed for every combatant / terrorist.

I am not convinced this is proportionate, nor that it is minimising civilian casualties as required by international law.
 
Jedi said:
why did the palestinians start a war to annihilate the nascent jewish state in '48? in fact, what was their excuse for killing jews prior to '67 when there was no 'occupation/oppression'?

so you 'think' what hamas did is 'wrong'? you 'think' it was criminal? wow those are some strong words :rolleyes:
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You got that the wrong way round, lad. The zionists started the war in 1948, including the group which modelled itself explicitly on the SS which later became the basis for Mossad.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yeah it's also a war crime to intentionally hide combatants inside a civilian populace so...
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How do you define IDF reservists?

This is a genuine question which I do not have the answer to. Is a soldier on leave a combatant? Is a terrorist at home with his family a combatant, or only when he is armed and in uniform and launching a rocket or firing a gun?
 
Planigale said:
How do you define IDF reservists?

This is a genuine question which I do not have the answer to. Is a soldier on leave a combatant? Is a terrorist at home with his family a combatant, or only when he is armed and in uniform and launching a rocket or firing a gun?
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Just looking for a way to justify hostage taking, I see.
 
dudalb said:
Hiroshams and Nagasaki sure as hell ended the war fast , and spared the world the huge causlaties of an Invasion of Japan.
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Also civilian deaths were greater in conventional bombing raids.

I just looked up the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in WW2 it appears to be about 2:1, in the current Gazan conflict on the Gaza side it is about 100:1 and on the Israeli side about 5:1.*

*This should not be construed as a defence of criminal actions by Hamas.
 
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dudalb said:
Just looking for a way to justify hostage taking, I see.
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Where do you get that from? It seems to me completely unrelated to hostages.

It is a genuine question, that I have not an answer to. I would like some sensible interaction.
 
Planigale said:
Over last 24 hours more than 700 Gazans killed including (according to IDF) 'several' Hamas members. Probably 100 civilians killed for every combatant / terrorist. So far over 2,000 Gaza children killed. Over 300 children killed in last 24 hours, perhaps 50 children killed for every combatant / terrorist.

I am not convinced this is proportionate, nor that it is minimising civilian casualties as required by international law.
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what would you consider to be a proportionate response to the massacre of 1400 civilians?
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
You got that the wrong way round, lad. The zionists started the war in 1948, including the group which modelled itself explicitly on the SS which later became the basis for Mossad.
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Got to admit, I haven't heard this one yet. Proof?
 
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Jedi said:
Got to admit, I haven't heard this one yet. Proof?
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Foyle does not do proof.
he has proposed that "the Jews" in Israel buy land elsewhere and move to it. Just so you know what you are dealing with here.
 
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I think it's a stretch to compare a reserve unit of a military force with a terrorist cell.

Listen I know a LOT of people are really in love with the whole "The only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is which side wins thing" and I think's that is way overly-simplistic at best.

There are good and bad ways to fight wars. There is a difference between a soldier and a killer even if they are doing the same surface level thing in the moment. There IS a difference between collateral damage, even collateral damage that happens because you're lazy, stupid, careless, etc, and terrorism. There IS a difference between bombing a hospital and bombing a hospital because the bad guys have set up a command post in it.
 
dudalb said:
Foyle does not do proof.
he has proposed that "the Jews" in Israel buy land elsewhere and move to it. Just so you know what you are dealing with here.
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Thanks Dudalb, I had a feeling but wanted to see what, if anything, he came up with...
 
Ziggurat said:
What makes you say that?



First off, very little crime is caused by people starving. Most crime is a result of a breakdown in social order, which is different than deprivation.



You say that like it means Israel is in the wrong somehow. But it doesn't. It just means Israel is stronger. But strength is not a sin, weakness is not a virtue, and in war, you have no obligation to limit your enemy's casualties to less than your own. Hamas certainly wants to kill more Jews, they're only limited by their capacity, not by choice.

Gazans keep getting killed because Hamas keeps attacking Israel and then hiding behind those civilians. If Hamas wasn't attacking Israel, the number of Gazan casualties would drop through the floor. Hamas doesn't care about casualties in Gaza. They aren't attacking Israel because of that. You're making excuses for them.

Lastly, two short video clips in one link. I don't know the words being said, but the sentiment is pretty obvious. And it encapsulates quite a lot about this conflict, as well as why my sympathy for Gaza is running dry.

https://twitter.com/biasbit/status/1716192072275779921
Click to expand...

Even if Israel stopped doing every thing attributed to them (rightly or not) that results in harm to Gazans (justified or not), that wouldn't stop Hamas from wanting to see Israel destroyed. You'd still have Hamas attacks because they are committed to the destruction of Israel, and not through peaceful means.
 
Planigale said:
Over last 24 hours more than 700 Gazans killed including (according to IDF) 'several' Hamas members. Probably 100 civilians killed for every combatant / terrorist. So far over 2,000 Gaza children killed. Over 300 children killed in last 24 hours, perhaps 50 children killed for every combatant / terrorist.

I am not convinced this is proportionate, nor that it is minimising civilian casualties as required by international law.
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IIRC, it's not a failure at minimizing civilian casualties in terms of international law when casualties result because the other side has hidden military targets among civilians.

Hopefully someone with more Google-fu than me can check this. Happy to be corrected if necessary.
 
Paul2 said:
IIRC, it's not a failure at minimizing civilian casualties in terms of international law when casualties result because the other side has hidden military targets among civilians.

Hopefully someone with more Google-fu than me can check this. Happy to be corrected if necessary.
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And the figures are based on information from Hamas, which of course would be squeaky clean………
 
lionking said:
And the figures are based on information from Hamas, which of course would be squeaky clean………
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I don't disagree, but you've given me the opportunity to reiterate that the number of casualties isn't necessarily determinative.
 
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