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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

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The appeal to current law is facile and lazy. This is a debate about the should of public policy, not the is of public policy.
Appeal to the language of rights is worse than useless if we are trying to discuss which rights ought to be protected as a matter of public policy.

When someone writes "They don't actually have that right," that is a claim about existing policies and their justifications, rather than a claim about natural rights or god-given rights some other convenient fiction.
 
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Lisa Marchiano says
"What makes it unbearable is the mistaken belief it can be cured".
This is a vital statement, it simply says we are dangling forbidden fruit before the eyes of children. We on this board never set eyes on the fruit and did not suicide.

So no drugs, no knives.

At the beginning she indicates, then describes a 19 year old who had everything done, then profound regret, then Lisa dissuades her from suicide.

She ends with Carl Jung.

23 minutes, worth a go

https://youtu.be/EbcRHKpxRGo?si=QTJ3fzluYYxY7O_O
 
I don't think they do at all. I would rather consider the impact in each context and try to decide based on what the impact is, instead of comparing what category of person is impacted.

So you're going to determine who gets placed in which prison by interviewing every single prisoner?

Rather than considering the category of female prisoners as compared to the category of male prisoners and making a category level policy?

Seems totally reasonable and efficient.
 
I don't expect the trans rights folks to answer, but most of those issues looked pretty obvious to me.

  1. The right to be included in toilets and changing rooms based on gender rather than sex at birth
  2. The right to accommodation in hospitals, refuges, shelters and prisons based on gender rather than sex at birth
  3. The right to be included in women-only shortlists, award schemes, grants, etc.
  4. The right to be included in women's sports regardless of other considerations such as fairness or safety
  5. The right to be included in advocacy for women's rights, e.g. NOW
  6. The right to be referred to as girls/women based on gender rather than sex at birth
etc. & so forth

None of those are rights they currently have. Those are rights they want... but that wasn't what the question asked.
 
Cisgender women have the right to services and accommodations matching their gender identity, along with the right to be included in women-only shortlists, award schemes, grants, etc. In every numbered example, transgender women are asking for the same rights granted to cisgender women, but based on different inclusion criteria.

No we do not. Females have a right to services and accommodations that match our sex - males have the exact same right.

In the US, nobody at all has a right to be included in any shortlist, award scheme, or grant - it's not a *right* at all. The criteria are determined by the organizations that run those recognitions.

I'll tell you a right that transgender people have (in some states) that is DENIED to everyone else: The right to choose what prison wing they wish to be housed in. That's a special privilege that is available only to those who repeat the sacred catechism and perform the holy head tilt.
 
What gives you the right to decide whether or not biological females should be obliged to accept biological males into their safe spaces, based solely on the male's wishes and regardless of their own?

Lest we forget: women have been quietly allowing genuine transwomen to use their restrooms for decades. Pushback only started when TRAs began stridently demanding they be given no choice in the matter.

We were kind, we made accommodations... and the consequence of our kindness and compassion has been a loss of our own dignity and safety.
 
Genuine was probably the wrong word to use. I'm thinking of cases where women know and trust someone who is trans, and are comfortable with letting them into their safe spaces. That trust is earned, it can't be demanded as a right.

Previously, we saw males who were clearly males, but who were also trying really hard to pass. They were considerate, they didn't ogle us, they didn't try to intimidate us. They were respectful and so we played along, and we didn't make a big deal of it. We assumed they were going through enough, and since they were not causing problems, we allowed it - at our discretion.

That changed. It's not longer at our discretion, and they're no longer being respectful and considerate. Now they're being bullies that seek to intimidate and overpower us, who take glee in violating our boundaries while reminding us that we have no choice in the matter.

That's what changed, and that's why we're no longer being kind.
 
We're probably playing chicken-and-egg here, but my perception is that pushback started when people started arguing that status quo was unacceptable and wanted to force even "genuine transwomen" to use the restroom matching their biological sex.

No, your perception is wrong.

The pushback started when people who were obviously male, weren't even trying, and were no longer being considerate of the females in female spaces started demanding that they have the *right* to invade our spaces and to violate our boundaries. The pushback started when the adult male with a dangling dick decided that it was more important for them to have a *right* to be in the showers at the same time as the female middle school swim team... and that the young females were the ones with the problem if they didn't like seeing a penis in the female showers. The pushback started when the state took the side of the adult male who had been parading their genitals around in front of minor females and told the females they needed to find somewhere else to shower if they were uncomfortable with penises.
 
That's fair. Again this is a very hard discussion to put into the kind of nuance people are trying to put into words and that's not always easy. The last thing I'm gonna do is poo-poo some less than 100% perfect wordage.

As to your point I mean I get it (and I mean that 100% honestly without snark) but how is that supposed to functionally work?

It works when it is discretionary for the females, and when the male-bodied person is expected to leave if asked to do so. It works when females have the *right* to single-sex spaces (males do to), and may choose to make an occasional exception.
 
This condition only holds true in the parts of the world where public policy segregates by sex rather than by gender identity. In other parts of the world (e.g. Ivy League swimming, Korean spas in California) they do things differently. Your analogy to citizenship is instructive here; nation states are free to socially deconstruct and reconstruct it as they please.

Sure. I didn't say it was impossible to have gender based segregation. I said cisgendered people aren't being given rights that trans people don't have.
 
Appeal to the language of rights is worse than useless if we are trying to discuss which rights ought to be protected as a matter of public policy.

When someone writes "They don't actually have that right," that is a claim about existing policies and their justifications, rather than a claim about natural rights or god-given rights some other convenient fiction.

And again:

Cisgender women have the right to services and accommodations matching their gender identity, along with the right to be included in women-only shortlists, award schemes, grants, etc. In every numbered example, transgender women are asking for the same rights granted to cisgender women, but based on different inclusion criteria.

Cisgender women don't have the rights that you claim based on their being cisgender. Nor are trans women denied those rights because they are trans. If you want to play with language here, then, yes, trans people are denied rights that cis people have, but only to the exact same extent that men are denied rights that women have, and vice versa. And since we are all either male or female, we are all denied these rights to the exact same extent, trans people aren't different in this respect.

I don't think that's the right way to frame the issue, but if you want to frame it that way, then the above is correct.
 
Cisgender women have the right to services and accommodations matching their gender identity

No. They have the right to services matching their sex. That right may coincide with their preferences, but that's a preference, not a right. These are all sex-based rights, not gender-based rights. There's quite an extensive justification for the existence of limited sex-based rights, but I have never once heard any justification for any gender-based rights. It's always a bait-and-switch.

It's nice when the rights you have match your preferences. And we don't like it when that's not the case. But individual people's preferences shouldn't be the controlling factor. If you grew up in the UK and you developed a preference for driving on the left side of the road, then you move to America, we're not going to accommodate your preference. You have to drive on the right side of the road like everyone else here, even if you want to drive on the left. You aren't being discriminated against by being forced to drive on the right.
 
Cisgender women don't have the rights that you claim based on their being cisgender. Nor are trans women denied those rights because they are trans.
Okay, but the only reason we would even talk about the right to use facilities matching one's gender (rather than one's sex) is because they are trans. This is the specific right which the ACLU has been arguing about in courtrooms across the country, rather than any sex-based rights, which are either ignored by American civil rights activists or else characterized as transphobic bigotry rather than something one might claim as a matter of right.

If you want to play with language here, then, yes, trans people are denied rights that cis people have, but only to the exact same extent that men are denied rights that women have, and vice versa.
Cisgender men being denied the right to enter female designated spaces is not "the exact same extent" of a denial as transgender women being denied the right to enter female designated spaces, for obvious reasons. The former group does not want to be accepted in female spaces as a matter of personal affirmation and does not claim that a lack of acceptance will negatively impact their mental health.

And since we are all either male or female, we are all denied these rights to the exact same extent, trans people aren't different in this respect.
Do you really believe they are impacted by these denials in the same way?
 
No. They have the right to services matching their sex. That right may coincide with their preferences, but that's a preference, not a right.
It actually is a right in places like Canada and California, where discrimination on grounds of gender identity has been barred by law. If you are going to talk about which rights actually exist (in the real world rather than in our imaginations) you have to look at what legislatures are passing and what courts are enforcing.

If cisgender women say "We have a right to female-only changing rooms!" and transgender women say "We have a right to use changing rooms which match our gender!" only one of them can be correct in any given jurisdiction at any given time. It's not a question which can be settled by appeal to abstract moral reasoning.
 
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Cisgender men being denied the right to enter female designated spaces is not "the exact same extent" of a denial as transgender women being denied the right to enter female designated spaces, for obvious reasons. The former group does not want to be accepted in female spaces as a matter of personal affirmation and does not claim that a lack of acceptance will negatively impact their mental health.

:rolleyes: I get that you're playing devil's advocate here, and arguing the concepts rather than taking a personal position... but come on, buddy.

Those can only be asserted as being different if you develop ESP. From the perspective of an objective observer, there's no difference between male #1 wanting to use female spaces because they say they want affirmation and male #2 wanting to use female spaces because they say they want affirmation. The only way to tell the difference is to be able to read their minds and determine that male #1 is lying.

But before we even get there... why are the desires of the males in question being granted precedence in the first place? Why on earth should the desires of males - regardless of whether they're honest or not - be granted a higher priority in policy than the desires, safety, and dignity of females?

That's part of the problem with this entire topic! It centers the desires of males as the most important thing, and it relegates all female perspectives to a secondary or tertiary role.

Some males want to use female spaces, so the world (generally) steps back and starts considering whether or not the reasons that those males present are "good" reasons for them to get to use female spaces. People consider whether or not it would be "nice" to help those males feel better, and feel like the world accepts them the way *they* want to be accepted.

The fact that in doing so, females feel unaccepted, unaffirmed, and feel bad just doesn't seem to matter. The fact that this introduces a new level of risk to females, that it opens up giant gaping loopholes that would allow malicious males to exploit them and gain access to females when we are vulnerable... well, that's not a priority consideration. Because females just don't matter as much as males to the world in general.

When feminists talk about "the patriarchy", the surface level is males in positions of power and leadership, effectively excluding females from participation. The foundation, however, is that we live in a society that was developed by males, shaped around a male perspective as the norm, and that assumes a male point of view as the default for all decisions and policies. Even if it's not blatant, it's there. The male is accepted as the norm and the default, thus all aspects of society are anchored in that view, and variance from it must be justified to males.

From early childhood on, even when kids are allowed to play with whatever toys they want... juvenile males are conditioned to expect that they will get what they want. Males are conditioned to believe that their desires ought to be met. That doesn't mean they always actually get what they want, but it does mean that generally speaking, they expect to be provided with a good reason for why they can't have what they want. Males are conditioned to seek fulfillment for their desires, and to view their desires as a primary motivator. Males learn from a young age that pursuing their desires is a virtue.

Females are conditioned to subordinate our desires. We're conditioned to expect our desires to NOT be fulfilled. We're conditioned to hear "no" in response to our wants, and to not expect a justification for that "no". We are taught that our wants are not important - and that it's selfish of us to have wants in the first place. We learn from a very young age that suppressing our desires is a virtue, and that fulfilling the desires of other - especially males - is a laudable thing.

This is all a long winded way to circle back to "Why the **** should females be expected to have their mental health negatively impacted in order to positively impact the mental health of some males"?
 
If cisgender women say "We have a right to female-only changing rooms!" and transgender women say "We have a right to use changing rooms which match our gender!" only one of them can be correct in any given jurisdiction at any given time. It's not a question which can be settled by appeal to abstract moral reasoning.

Please don't refer to females as "cisgender". It relegates us to the sidelines of our own sex class. And that's extremely insulting and offensive.
 
Another pebble in what could become an avalanche of lawsuits against gender transition medical providers for harm done to children:
https://dw-wp-production.imgix.net/2023/10/Ayala-v-AAP-Complaint_stamped.pdf

This one is notable for including the American Academy of Pediatrics among the defendants. They're going after the AAP for its policy statement in favor of hormone treatment for children, and alleging fraud because the policy statement made claims of scientific evidence for the policy which didn't exist.

And that argument is absolutely correct. We've picked it apart in this very thread, the AAP's policy is a farce and a lie. I don't know how much legal culpability they have, but I know it was unsupported ********. And unless the AAP gets out of this on a technicality, then they're going to have to try to defend their claims, and they're going to fail.
 
This one is notable for including the American Academy of Pediatrics among the defendants. They're going after the AAP for its policy statement in favor of hormone treatment for children, and alleging fraud because the policy statement made claims of scientific evidence for the policy which didn't exist.


There are people out there who are working to provide the 'Scientific Evidence' needed and they publish in 'Peer Reviewed' journals. Here's an abstract from a recent paper on 'Deconstructing Sex', the full text is linked to below the abstract.


The scientific community widely recognizes that “sex” is a complex category composed of multiple physiologies. Yet in practice, basic scientific research often treats “sex” as a single, internally consistent, and often binary variable. This practice occludes important physiological factors and processes, and thus limits the scientific value of our findings. In human-oriented biomedical research, the use of simplistic (and often binary) models of sex ignores the existence of intersex, trans, non-binary, and gender non-conforming people and contributes to a medical paradigm that neglects their needs and interests. More broadly, our collective reliance on these models legitimizes a false paradigm of human biology that undergirds harmful medical practices and anti-trans political movements. Herein, we continue the conversations begun at the SBN 2022 Symposium on Hormones and Trans Health, providing guiding questions to help scientists deconstruct and rethink the use of “sex” across the stages of the scientific method. We offer these as a step toward a scientific paradigm that more accurately recognizes and represents sexed physiologies as multiple, interacting, variable, and unbounded by gendered preconceptions. We hope this paper will serve as a useful resource for scientists who seek a new paradigm for researching and understanding sexed physiologies that improves our science, widens the applicability of our findings, and deters the misuse of our research against marginalized groups.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X23001393?via=ihub
 
Everything we say gets countered with "it's complicated" and then "complicated" never gets explained.

Yeah we know "sex is a complicated spectrum of nuance on a complicated nuanced spectrum of complicated nuance" we heard it the first 50 times.

That's not the END of an explanation, it's the start of one.
 
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