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Split Thread Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla

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You may argue that this construction makes the body harder to repair, but it's probably not going to need repair like a soft aluminum truck body or car with steel so thin that you can dent it just by leaning on it too hard.

i don't believe it makes it harder to repair, in fact it's probably easier due to ease of access. the problem is that while stainless is stronger than aluminum and even mild steel, it's not so strong that it can withstand a collision, and a collision results in a damaged frame instead of damaging a cosmetic panel (which you don't need to repair in the same way you do a structural member), and a lot of shops, rightfully, aren't going to want the liability involved in attempting such a repair. i think that'll turn a lot of minor collisions into total losses.
 
i don't believe it makes it harder to repair, in fact it's probably easier due to ease of access. the problem is that while stainless is stronger than aluminum and even mild steel, it's not so strong that it can withstand a collision, and a collision results in a damaged frame instead of damaging a cosmetic panel (which you don't need to repair in the same way you do a structural member), and a lot of shops, rightfully, aren't going to want the liability involved in attempting such a repair. i think that'll turn a lot of minor collisions into total losses.

A problem that already exist for other Tesla vehicles, though I suspect it will be even more pronounced in the Cybertruck.

Insurers are increasingly writing off — or "totaling" — a Tesla even after light damage because of their complexity and repair cost, according to market-watchers at Kelley Blue Book.

Because there are so many tech features like sensors and cameras in the car — on top of highly specific parts that can only be fixed by Tesla or one of its approved body shops — it's often cheaper to declare the vehicle destroyed and send it to the scrapyard instead of getting it back in working order.

Luckily, many elements of an electric car's drivetrain can be salvaged. In some cases, parts might find themselves powering a classic conversion by a small handful of enthusiasts who are retrofitting some of the most famous cars ever made to run on electricity.

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-tesla-cars-get-totaled-insurance-repair-costs-2023-6#:~:text=You%20may%20be%20in%20for,watchers%20at%20Kelley%20Blue%20Book.

Definitely worth getting an insurance quote before buying a Tesla, you may be shocked.
 
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Pathetic.

If you look at the construction of a Ford F150 for example you will see that the body adds zero structural strength to the chassis. The cab and deck are separate parts that are mounted to the chassis on rubber bushings, so they are floating and only held down loosely by bolts going through the bushings. If the frame rusts out the truck can 'break its back' in an alarming manner. The aluminum panels don't add much strength to the body either.
We all accept that the Cybertruck is constructed differently to an F150. The point of comparison was a Toyota Prius and the argument was that Cybertruck seems to use similar principles.

My point is that the term "exoskeleton" is really meaningless when applied to car construction. "Monocoque" or "partial monocoque" would be better - Musk says "exoskeleton" because it sounds cool to the fanbois who lap it up.

The Cybertruck is completely different. Those thick stainless steel panels are rigidly attached to the frame to provide significant strength in the skin, certainly more than a Prius with its eggshell-thin steel panels that rely on their curved shape to avoid buckling.
You make it sound like shaping structural members so that they can be stronger for lighter weight is a bad thing. It's not, it's a good thing.
You may argue that this construction makes the body harder to repair, but it's probably not going to need repair like a soft aluminum truck body or car with steel so thin that you can dent it just by leaning on it too hard.
Yeah, it is going to need repair. And structural members are significantly harder to repair than non structural items. I have a friend who has a Lotus Elise. The small window behind the passenger compartment got cracked but it cost thousands of pounds to repair. Why? Because it was structural. They had to put the car on a jig whilst they fitted the (expensive) replacement window because of that.

My main concern though is not the cost of repair, but what the Cybertruck will do to the things it hits. If it's not going to deform, whatever it hits - another car, a person - is going to deform more. I have serious concerns for its lethality* and I hope never to see one in British roads.

But hey, don't let that stop us from 'interpreting' Musk's description of the Cybertruck's construction as something we can then accuse of being lame and stupid. Is this a truck are talking about, or a straw man?
Describing a monocoque as an exoskeleton is lame.

*yes, i know this applies to other American trucks too, but we don't do whataboutery here, do we?
 
by the way, i don't like the MDS angle. people not liking musk aren't deranged. the guy is a well documented *******
 
Pathetic.

If you look at the construction of a Ford F150 for example you will see that the body adds zero structural strength to the chassis. The cab and deck are separate parts that are mounted to the chassis on rubber bushings, so they are floating and only held down loosely by bolts going through the bushings. If the frame rusts out the truck can 'break its back' in an alarming manner. The aluminum panels don't add much strength to the body either.

Congratulations on describing 'body on frame' construction in response to a post where I also described it.

The Cybertruck is completely different. Those thick stainless steel panels are rigidly attached to the frame to provide significant strength in the skin, certainly more than a Prius with its eggshell-thin steel panels that rely on their curved shape to avoid buckling.

Is it? And are those panels attached that rigidly? The rollover pictures don't show that. The pictures of the body in the white doesn't either.

How is it providing 'significant strength' in the skin? It doesn't appear to have been welded on, nor are there sufficient attachment points for bolts to be supplying it meaningfully. The extra strength would only be when force is applied in directions that push the panels in the same direction as the attachment points support it. That isn't nothing, but it isn't going to increase the survivability of the vehicle panels. Those expensive, expensive and difficult to replace panels. It would also interfere in the the crumple zones working as intended. Old cars were like this; the vehicle often survived crashes that the occupants did not. It's like there are good reasons that panels got thinner.

The objection that the panels on vehicles like the Prius are doing their job as intended and not doing a different job is nonsense. The panels protect from things like salt and water, while providing the aerodynamic profile desired. And, let's face it, in many cases looks are above that last bit. They don't need to be thick and being thick doesn't tend to help with anything really important in their designs.

The Cybertruck panels don't appear to be doing that either, but are also heavy and large and hard to replace.

You may argue that this construction makes the body harder to repair,

That's just trivially true, not really an 'argument'. It's an observation.

but it's probably not going to need repair like a soft aluminum truck body or car with steel so thin that you can dent it just by leaning on it too hard.

Absolute bullocks. You don't need an expensive fix for that kind of dent on normally constructed vehicles. Dent pullers are dirt cheap. More importantly, it is going to need repair. The times it needs it, which is going to be almost as much as any other vehicle apart from panel rust, it's going to be so expensive that they'll more often be written off.

I mean, that's great for me if electric motors can be had cheaper to convert my Silverado if the engine goes, but that's not so great for the Cybertruck's stated goal of being way more tough than existing options.

But hey, don't let that stop us from 'interpreting' Musk's description of the Cybertruck's construction as something we can then accuse of being lame and stupid. Is this a truck are talking about, or a straw man?

I'm not going to let your weird spin stop me from critically examining the claims and the design. There is just no way to shut off the training that makes me anticipate what problems warranty is going to bring to me to try to address, even if that hasn't been my job for a couple years now.

Especially because 'well I can lean on my truck without ruining the panels' is so extraordinarily weak. You can do that with most trucks. This isn't the cope you were looking for.

I'll again say that people aren't wrong to want Tesla's, even specifically the Cybertruck, or be dissatisfied with them. However, there are major problems and evidence that goes against the company's many claims. Skeptics aren't going to stop just because the panels are thick.
 
what do you think these things are going to weigh? 12,000 lbs? more?

-edit-

the crappy aluminum ford lightning looks like it weights in at less than 7000
 
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Not sure if this is what investors in Tesla wanted to hear:

Elon Musk said that Tesla "dug its own grave" with the Cybertruck, as he warned that it would take years for the company to ramp up production of the electric pickup.

Speaking on Tesla's Q3 earnings call on Wednesday, the Tesla CEO said that the Cybertruck's unique design meant the company faces immense challenges in scaling production, with Tesla aiming to produce a quarter of a million trucks a year by 2025.

"We dug our own grave with the Cybertruck," Musk said.

It's "one of those special products that comes along only once in a long while. And special products that come along once in a long while are just incredibly difficult to bring to market to reach volume, to be prosperous," he added.

Link
 
Not sure if this is what investors in Tesla wanted to hear:



Link

Special product, is that a synonym for stupid idea that only had potential merit as a marketing gimmick that added to cost, complexity and reduced reliability and utility?
 
Special product, is that a synonym for stupid idea that only had potential merit as a marketing gimmick that added to cost, complexity and reduced reliability and utility?

Sounds like SOP for "visionaries" like this - design a product with little or no consideration for ease of production and then simply shout and scream at subordinates when volume production turns out to be predictably difficult.

I'd hazard that the vast majority of the effort in product development for "traditional" vehicle makers goes into logistics and production planning rather than styling. I suspect that the reverse is true in the case of the Cybertruck.
 

Apart from all the stuff about Musk avoiding the difficult questions and whinging about the macro economic conditions for "about half the call", the bit that drew my attention was this:

First, we missed the first half of Musk’s opening statement because he was muted.
But that’s not the worst part.

The worst part was that Tesla unmuted him, but they didn’t tell him. He didn’t restart his statement; he just continued as if nothing happened. And then it happened again halfway through the call.

Thos of us who have been on a lot of Zoom and Teams meetings have experienced this, in my case, a lot. However, the fact that nobody from the company noticed for so long (maybe they were all in the same room) and when they did notice, they didn't tell Musk, is very concerning.

Nobody had the nerve to inform him of a fairly trivial mistake that we all make from time to time. Imagine the arse covering that must go on when something big goes wrong.
 
Sounds like SOP for "visionaries" like this - design a product with little or no consideration for ease of production and then simply shout and scream at subordinates when volume production turns out to be predictably difficult.

I'd hazard that the vast majority of the effort in product development for "traditional" vehicle makers goes into logistics and production planning rather than styling. I suspect that the reverse is true in the case of the Cybertruck.

What? They put effort into the styling for Cybertruck?
 
Apart from all the stuff about Musk avoiding the difficult questions and whinging about the macro economic conditions for "about half the call", the bit that drew my attention was this:



Thos of us who have been on a lot of Zoom and Teams meetings have experienced this, in my case, a lot. However, the fact that nobody from the company noticed for so long (maybe they were all in the same room) and when they did notice, they didn't tell Musk, is very concerning.

Nobody had the nerve to inform him of a fairly trivial mistake that we all make from time to time. Imagine the arse covering that must go on when something big goes wrong.

Maybe everyone in the company is was on the factory floor trying to crank out as many Cybertrucks as possible.
 
Sounds like SOP for "visionaries" like this - design a product with little or no consideration for ease of production and then simply shout and scream at subordinates when volume production turns out to be predictably difficult.
...snip...

As popularised by Steve Jobs all those years ago.
 
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