Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[dudalb]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I think if you in favor of letting HAMAS off the hook, you are a sick puppy.
I think the poster is confusing revenge with justice.
You do what HAMAS did, you deserve what is coming to you.
I am not a Christian, and do not buy into the turn the other cheek crap when ti comes to stuff like what HAMAS did.

 

[Beerina]

Ahh, remember 4 hours ago? Good times, good times!

 

[lionking]

I think you are incorrect.



https://www.britannica.com/topic/United-Nations-Resolution-181
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

You can find a map on both sites where the Jewish state mandated by the UN is considerably smaller than it is now; the arab state (West Bank and Gaza) is smaller now than it was then, and has not become as was intended a co-equal state.

You automatically lose the argument in threads like this when you cite UN resolutions. Most of the UN (few of the big countries, but each tinpot ******** gets the same vote) votes for each and every resolution condemning Israel. UN mandates can be safely ignored, as most sane countries do.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

You automatically lose the argument in threads like this when you cite UN resolutions. Most of the UN (few of the big countries, but each tinpot ******** gets the same vote) votes for each and every resolution condemning Israel. UN mandates can be safely ignored, as most sane countries do.

That's a bit simplistic.
Of course the usual suspects will always vote against Israel, but it is noteworthy when allied countries abstain or even join with the condemnation.

 

[steenkh]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Of course it’s a bad thing. It has no other purpose than to persuade the situation.

In Hamas’ view the worst thing that could happen is that Israel acts with moderation. Hamas wants dead Palestinians in order to justify their war against Israel.

Nobody in their right mind can believe that the violence will stop if Israel kills a lot of Palestinians.

 

[steenkh]

I think if you in favor of letting HAMAS off the hook, you are a sick puppy.
I think the poster is confusing revenge with justice.

You think it is justice to collectively punish all Palestinians in Gaza for what Hamas did?

There is no hook to let Hamas off when you do what Hamas knew you would do, and wanted you to do. Israel would have put Hamas in an awkward situation if Israel had not acted in the murderous fashion that Hamas calculated with.

You do what HAMAS did, you deserve what is coming to you.
I am not a Christian, and do not buy into the turn the other cheek crap when ti comes to stuff like what HAMAS did.

We completely agree that Hamas should wiped off the face of the Earth, but we disagree on whether Gaza Palestinians should go with them.

Interesting that you should mention turning the other cheek, because the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank has given up armed fight, and the only thing that has gained them is encroachment on their territory under the protection of Israel.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Negotiations with the Palestinians have been attempted repeatedly over several decades. Hamas's problem is they've done nothing to earn themselves a place at the negotiating table. Hamas are not acting in good faith, and there's no reason to treat them as if they are.

And in every single deal made Palestine has had to make concessions to Israel, who has subsequently broken every deal.

Anybody who argues that Israel is the good guy here is arguing in bad faith.

 

[lionking]

And in every single deal made Palestine has had to make concessions to Israel, who has subsequently broken every deal.

Anybody who argues that Israel is the good guy here is arguing in bad faith.

You really have no idea of the history of this region, have you? In reality, the opposite is true.

But whatever. Mind commentating about Hamas’ charter, committing itself to the destruction of Israel? Is this how reasonable people behave?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Negotiations with the Palestinians have been attempted repeatedly over several decades.

Hamas's problem is they've done nothing to earn themselves a place at the negotiating table. Hamas are not acting in good faith, and there's no reason to treat them as if they are.

Worth mentioning that Israeli right wingers are very much opposed to any agreement and are just as fanatical as Hamas, to the point that one assassinated the Israeli PM that was making meaningful strides towards normalizing relations.

Any Israeli politician that made real progress towards making peace with the Palestinians would probably be murdered by Zionist hardliners.

 

[webfusion]

Looking back over the last few pages of this inexhaustable thread --

The UN with Resolution 181 did not MANDATE the creation of a Jewish State & Arab State, but rather, suggested it, along the lines of the Partition Plan. That vote came amidst an ongoing civil war and the British said they were done with the whole mess and they wanted to disengage.

President Biden is in for a bumpy ride. Hopefully he does a Weeble-Wobble but doesn't fall down.
Not that it really matters, but I noticed that Bibi met with Joe and wasn't wearing a tie.
I liked this picture (linked), it really captured the relationship between these two men, with the American President trying to console his friend, and the Israeli Prime Minister accepting the physical gesture with all due respect and sorrow.
https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_faces:center,h_565,w_1040/559244

I'm reminded of Mark Twain's famous quote about the truth just getting on its boots while the lies run around the world. (Hamas checked local on-the-ground reports after the hospital explosion, and itself understood that it was an Islamic Jihad rocket misfired and decided to pursue a global media campaign to hide/lie about what actually had happened).

 

[Ziggurat]

Israel would have put Hamas in an awkward situation if Israel had not acted in the murderous fashion that Hamas calculated with.

This is simply delusional. You think Hamas cares about being in an "awkward" situation? Hell no. They are totally OK with looking like the bad guys to most of the world. And a lack of forceful response makes Hamas look strong. Which is the best recruiting tool by far. I'm sure Hamas didn't expect Israel to sit back and take it, but they would absolutely love it if Israel did.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Isn't "Hamas is totally doing stuff to make Israel look bad!" already the #1 talking point (somehow) among the Hamas excusers in this thread?

So what a "false flag" doesn't fit into that being their primary motive how exactly?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Isn't "Hamas is totally doing stuff to make Israel look bad!" already the #1 talking point (somehow) among the Hamas excusers explainers in this thread?

So what a "false flag" doesn't fit into that being their primary motive how exactly?

there is a difference, even if some can't see it.

Just like the European allies who hold Bush not to invade Iraq (and didn't assist) turned out to be better allies than Great Britain (which enabled the invasion), so are people and States who caution Israel against incaving Gaza better Friends than those who scream for Hamas blood, regardless of the collateral damage.
What Israel is currently doing is following Hamas' (and Al Qaeda's) playbook to the letter, with utterly predictable outcomes.

And no one who could get radicalized will not do so because a Hamas rocket fell short - from their point of view, this is a defensive war for survival against an invader being waged with no-tech weapons.

 

[Ziggurat]

Just like the European allies who hold Bush not to invade Iraq (and didn't assist) turned out to be better allies than Great Britain (which enabled the invasion), so are people and States who caution Israel against incaving Gaza better Friends than those who scream for Hamas blood, regardless of the collateral damage.

Don't kid yourself. Whatever the merits of invading or not invading, the advice isn't being given for the benefit of the advisee, it's being given for the benefit of the advisor. Europe doesn't want Israel to invade Gaza because they don't want to deal with angry Muslim immigrant populations that they have failed to integrate into their society. Whether or not that's better for Israel is entirely incidental.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Don't kid yourself. Whatever the merits of invading or not invading, the advice isn't being given for the benefit of the advisee, it's being given for the benefit of the advisor. Europe doesn't want Israel to invade Gaza because they don't want to deal with angry Muslim immigrant populations that they have failed to integrate into their society. Whether or not that's better for Israel is entirely incidental.

I think you are dead wrong, making many people dead as a result.

The World can learn everything about War from Europe, because Europe is the best example of a continent where in nearly two thousand years everyone was at war with everyone else at one time or another.
And yet they managed to create a Union within which war is now unthinkable.

And European State and Companies want to do business in Israel AND Gaza / West Bank, and most of the infrastructure in Gaza is build with a ton of EU money. The EU is one of the reasons why Palestinians have any chance of survival. And you need peace for trade.

It is very much in Israel's interest not to invade Gaza, but if all you have is a hammer ...

 

[JoeMorgue]

And no one who could get radicalized will not do so because a Hamas rocket fell short - from their point of view, this is a defensive war for survival against an invader being waged with no-tech weapons.

Again this isn't a movie. This isn't the plucky sports team of latchkey kids trying to win enough money to save the community center that has to use a golden retriever as a wide receiver up against the snotty rich kids from the other side of town, ergo they have to be the ones we root for.

Hamas isn't the good guy because they are the underdog.

Every side of every conflict ever has been the good guy. You don't get points for a vague, glib "But subjectively from their point of view they believe they have the opinion of considering themselves correct."

 

[Ziggurat]

I think you are dead wrong, making many people dead as a result.

I don't think you actually paid attention to what I said.

The World can learn everything about War from Europe

Perhaps, but not relevant to my claim. My claim in that post actually had nothing to do with whether or not Israel invading Gaza was a good thing or a bad thing. It was entirely about what motivates Europe. And Europe's history of war has nothing to do with whether they're going to be motivated by altruism or by self-interest.

It is very much in Israel's interest not to invade Gaza

You haven't convinced me. And your appeal to some European authority on war because of its history isn't relevant to your claim. You didn't personally experience that history. You aren't magically endowed with ancestral knowledge. In fact, the reverse seems to be the case. Because war within Europe has become, as you say, unthinkable, I think most Europeans no longer understand war. And you have demonstrated that you really don't understand Hamas at all.

 

[theprestige]

Israel would have put Hamas in an awkward situation if Israel had not acted in the murderous fashion that Hamas calculated with.

Israel has been treating Hamas pretty moderately for the past couple years at least. Far from making things awkward for Hamas, it seems to have had the opposite effect. It gave them time and space to plan and execute a horrific mass terror attack. That's the result, when Israel treats them with moderation to make things "awkward" for Hamas.

I think what really makes things awkward for Hamas, what really gets them to change their tactics away from huge set-piece terror attacks, is making sure they're too busy fighting for their lives to sit down and organize something.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Hamas: Literally puts the destruction of Israel and the concept of Jihad in their founding documents.

"Okay but if you react to Hamas that just means you fell into their trap."

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Hamas: Literally puts the destruction of Israel and the concept of Jihad in their founding documents.

"Okay but if you react to Hamas that just means you fell into their trap."

And is there any possible way for Hamas to achieve that?