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Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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JoeMorgue said:
Hamas is a pro-terrorism and anti-"Israel gets to exist" organization by definition, in their own words, and that is a fact and it is not up for debate.

There own charter, their own defining document states called for the creation of a Palestinian state IN PLACE OF Israel, is "where Israel is at right now."

Direct quote. ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″ That's the "We the People" part of the Hamas charter.

And again for all you proud Lefties simping for it, Hamas is blatantly misogynistic, and I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just guess that their stance on gay rights probably isn't a thing. Again THEY WOULD KILL PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD.

Hamas is everything you all hate and put on big airs about being too good to negotiate with when it comes to the Republicans times 1,000.
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It does not mean that negotiation should not be attempted.
 
dudalb said:
Keep dreaming. Your Fantasy New State of Palestine is not going to happen, Even if there is Palestinain state, it will not resemble your pipe dream.
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How can you be so sure? There are many who said to Theodore Herzl, "Dude, that's just a dream, it's not gonna happen..." (See: If You Will It, Then It's Not A Dream)

The discussion about a NewState (Gaza and expanded N.Sinai) is already happening, both in Washington and Jerusalem. And General Sisi knows what's coming, as he's already being asked to cooperate.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/17/israel-war-why-wouldnt-egypt-want-gazan-refugees
 
Planigale said:
It does not mean that negotiation should not be attempted.
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Negotiations with the Palestinians have been attempted repeatedly over several decades.

Hamas's problem is they've done nothing to earn themselves a place at the negotiating table. Hamas are not acting in good faith, and there's no reason to treat them as if they are.
 
I'll once again advocate for trading Hawaii for Palestine...We would LOVE to have a neighbor paying crazy money for us to sit around fishing and surfing all day for the low low price of not shooting rockets at them. It would be a major upgrade in terms of being able to actually afford a place to live for us. The Palestinians could shoot all the rockets they want, hell, there's already an island, Kahoolawe, which is already a arget practice spot for bombs and missiles....Win win
 
webfusion said:
How can you be so sure? There are many who said to Theodore Herzl, "Dude, that's just a dream, it's not gonna happen..." (See: If You Will It, Then It's Not A Dream)

The discussion about a NewState (Gaza and expanded N.Sinai) is already happening, both in Washington and Jerusalem. And General Sisi knows what's coming, as he's already being asked to cooperate.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/17/israel-war-why-wouldnt-egypt-want-gazan-refugees
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Uh, you failed to see where I thinn some kind of Palestinaing stste would emerge, but it would no be the one you have in mind. I cannot see Egypt ceding the terrirtory.
 
Darat said:
Eh? You seem to be living in opposite land.
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I was talking abut the lack of condemantion of the HAMAS video.
TO me, the taking of innocent people as a hostage is a total outrage, anc cannot be tolerated, and the people who od it cannot be let off the hook You doo, you get more Hostage taking.
That is my fear. Hostage Taking, once pretty common, has not been happenng that much lately, I do not want to see it revived.
 
Years ago I used to read a blog by Steven Den Beste. He wrote a couple good articles regarding terrorism and tangentially the Israel Palestine conflict. I'm not sure if he was entirely correct (he was an engineer, not a historian) but his explanation made sense to me at the time.

The articles are still around on web archives somewhere (Den Beste passed away several years ago), but they are too wordy to quote, so I'll try to summarize what I remember about them.

The objective of terrorism is not actually to create terror or even really to do damage to the enemy. It's actually to provoke a response, the more brutal the better (within limits). The response breeds hatred towards the enemy among your people, which helps with recruitment.

Disproportionate attacks in response also result in sympathy for the plight of your people.

Eventually, you reach a point where you are strong enough that to convert to guerilla warfare.

He also specifically said that the Palestinian groups (Hamas, etc.) had completely botched the whole idea. It's hard to gain sympathy when you are killing children in their beds and the like.

At the same time, The Israelis don't help because they help to perpetrate the conditions that breed terrorists: poverty, hopelessness, etc. And their hands aren't exactly clean either. (There were articles not too long ago about Israeli settlers attacking Palestinians and driving them from their homes.)

Other than the pipe dream of one group giving up and moving somewhere else, the only way I can see to end this is to undermine the conditions that terrorist groups like Hamas feed on. Hamas wants poverty and misery. It's what they feed on. So take that away.

I don't mean "send money." I mean build an economy.

Hamas absolutely has to be eliminated (or reduced to insignificance), but the day after, the plan should be to build Gaza up. Of course, it would take the assistance of other (mostly Arab) countries as there is little trust for Israel.
 
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dudalb said:
I was talking abut the lack of condemantion of the HAMAS video.

TO me, the taking of innocent people as a hostage is a total outrage, anc cannot be tolerated, and the people who od it cannot be let off the hook You doo, you get more Hostage taking.

That is my fear. Hostage Taking, once pretty common, has not been happenng that much lately, I do not want to see it revived.
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Every western leader I have heard have condemned the taking of the hostages.
 
webfusion said:
HAMAS is a mixture of many things. It's the Muslim institutions, it's the Red Crescent, it's the UNRWA, it's the Tourism Ministry, the Licensing Bureau, it's Garbage Collections.

We shall see soon enough what's the real meaning of "destroy HAMAS" --- I'm pretty sure that the elimination of Sinwar (and Deif, if the IDF can locate that slippery guy) will be a point in this war where the Israelis can say, "OK, we're done, head of HAMAS removed, carry on..."
(see: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin)
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Hamas is a proscribed terrorist group where I am, worthy I think of it too. Irans sock puppet.
 
That is another thing this might change. Iran has sort of gotten a pass on it's support of terrorist groups; some scolding, some not to serious sanctions;that might change.
 
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