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Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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Quick remarks on the above:
There is no defined area known as "Palestine" these days. Nor on any prior days. In June1967 there weren't borders between Israel and "Palestine" --please look at the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements (Egypt, Syria/Lebanon and Jordan all took part in their respective cease-fire in-place and military disengagement accords.)

As for the Golan? Here's a conundrum for you. Isn't that ex-Syrian area also Palestine? If not, why not?

No clear boundaries for Palestine? Yes and no. There were clear limits on what was and was not Israel. It is now immaterial as to whether or not West Bank was labeled as "Palestine" or as part of Jordan: It was not Israel. Neither was Gaza - and Gaza was not Egyptian either, even if it was under Egyptian occupation.

I never claimed that Golan was part of Palestine.
 
Back into the UN agreed borders of 1948

What is that in reference to? In November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181 (II) which offered a suggestion of partition of the former British Mandate for Palestine. At the time of this UN proposed bifurcation of the area, a hot civil war was underway between the Jews and Arabs.
The whole place was filled with lots of killings, bombings, abushes, ransacking, demolitions, whatever.
Jews gave as they got.

In the springtime of 1948, the Jewish leadership decided to proclaim the nascent Jewish State of Israel.
Borders had not yet been determined, and at the conclusion of the War of Independence in 1949, the Israelis were left with separation-of-forces maps to delineate the tenuous borders that could be formalized if the Arabs wanted.
For decades following, the Arabs loudly announced (including, notably, at their summit meeting in Khartoum in August 1967, after they all lost the SixDay War) the famous three No's
No Recognition of (the right to) a Jewish State
No Negotiations with the Jewish government
No Peace for the Jews
 
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No clear boundaries for Palestine? Yes and no. There were clear limits on what was and was not Israel. It is now immaterial as to whether or not West Bank was labeled as "Palestine" or as part of Jordan: It was not Israel. Neither was Gaza - and Gaza was not Egyptian either, even if it was under Egyptian occupation.

I never claimed that Golan was part of Palestine.

The Golan IS part of Palestine, as we have historically defined Palestine.
Why isn't the Hamas demanding that land area for a future Palestinian State? Doesn't it seem odd?

As for the borders of Israel, it wasn't until peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan that the demarcations were clearly surveyed and mapped and agreed-to. The UN kindly did their meticulous work on the Blue Line (Lebanon) and except for a few slight salients, that border is arranged systematically. The UN also supervises the truce lines (NOT borders) with Syria.

Gazan Palestinians in Sinai Rafiah (Rafah) were cut off from the rest of the Gaza strip in 1982 through the Egyptian and Israeli treaty. 1/2 of Rafah is Palestinian, despite it being on the other side of the fences & barbed wire. Is Hamas demanding it back? If not, why not?
 
Someone needs to tell israel that they are not special when it comes to international law, let's see what happens.

You wanna argue your case against a roomful of high-powered Jewish lawyers? Are you nuts? [smile]
 
Okay so open question. Real world, functional question, answer the question don't talk about the philosophy of the question.

Where SHOULD Israel go?

My view (and there are lots of good contrary arguments) is that there is no realistic two state solution, so one has to look at a solution involving one state. This has to involve equal rights for all residents. It should include the recognition that Arab residents have been historically treated unequally and many have been displaced from land and forced into refugee camps. That means support to correct historic inequalities but not return of land. I do not think that it can include a right of return of Palestinians resident in Refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc.
 
They are a threat to anyone in Israel, they are not an existential threat to the country of Israel.


Maybe you are in the long term rigt, bu the Israeli Government and the Israeli People seem to be convinced HAMAS is a threat to their existence.
History has shown that often what people beleive had a greater impact on history then what actually was. Human beings are often dirven by emotions. We are not Vulcans.
 
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I disagree. I think it's just been demonstrated that Hamas is a threat that Israel should eliminate. What they've done is sufficient justification to end Hamas.

In an ideal world that could be done without incurring other casualties, but this is not an ideal world.


That is the simple Truth, problem is a lot of people, to swipe a line from one of my favorite Jakc Nicsolson movies, just can't handle the Truth.
I also miantain that if you start your message with "I condemn HAMAS but" and then spend pages condeming Israel it shows where you are coming from.
 
In 2004 - and have since refused to hold further elections...

For almost a generation.

Ahhh Democracy.

And if the PA haven't held elections recently, they're no better.

ANd that is the tragedy of the Palestinian people: they have never had good leadership. Thye hbave never found a Gandhi or a Mandela.
Their leadership has always been corrupt and Intept, or bunch of fanatics or a combination of both.
And the attempts t portray HAMAS as some kind of baiscally benign organization with a unfortunate few fanatics is so messed up as to be ridiculous.
I am really shocked so many here are taking that position.
 
"I do not think that it can include a right of return of Palestinians resident in Refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc. "

Great. Remove the main pillar of the entire Palestinian Cause, that'll be an easy one, right?

The next step after this war needs to be a formation of the NewState of Palestine, with Gaza expanding into N.Sinai being developed with international largesse to create a defined homeland in coastal Palestine for all and any who wish to participate in that endeavor.

I am certain that hundreds of thousands of WestBank Palestinians would gladly migrate to join their brethren (especially with all the financial incentives and employment opportunities that will accrue to this Palestinian Nation in-statu-nascendi )
 
No, they're not.

Hamas won an election in 2006 and has blocked all elections since then. The great majority of people in Gaza who are of voting age have never experienced an election in all the time that they have been old enough to vote. Nearly half the population has never experienced an election in their lifetime.

Meanwhile, West Bank had elections in 2012, 2017, and 2021/2022.

I repeat, the attempts t puot a good face on HAMAS are just pathetic.
I am sure going over to open support for their actions is just a mattter of time.
I see it on other forums. I am hearing the because almost all Israeli CIvilians serve in the military at one time or another all are legitimate targets, and HAMAS was just taking Prisoners of War. No joking, I have this total c rap on several mainstream sites.
 
"I do not think that it can include a right of return of Palestinians resident in Refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc. "

Great. Remove the main pillar of the entire Palestinian Cause, that'll be an easy one, right?

The next step after this war needs to be a formation of the NewState of Palestine, with Gaza expanding into N.Sinai being developed with international largesse to create a defined homeland in coastal Palestine for all and any who wish to participate in that endeavor.

I am certain that hundreds of thousands of WestBank Palestinians would gladly migrate to join their brethren (especially with all the financial incentives and employment opportunities that will accrue to this Palestinian Nation in-statu-nascendi )

Good luck convincting Egypt to give up their land.
 
Seized power was winning an election. They are at least as reresentative as the PA are in the West Bank.

No, they're not.

Hamas won an election in 2006 and has blocked all elections since then. The great majority of people in Gaza who are of voting age have never experienced an election in all the time that they have been old enough to vote. Nearly half the population has never experienced an election in their lifetime.

Meanwhile, West Bank had elections in 2012, 2017, and 2021/2022.

Winning the election was one thing. I have no complaint about that and that's absolutely not what I was talking about when it comes to "seized power." The brutal violence and terrorism that they promptly engaged in against their political rivals and any dissenters, on the other hand, very much do fall under what I was referring to when I said "seized power." At last check, Hamas is not anywhere close to as representative as the PA in the West Bank area, whatever problems the PA may have. As crescent and I pointed out in different ways, Hamas is holding onto power with an iron fist. I think that the last number I saw for their approval rating was something like 38% and that 50% of Gazans wanted Hamas to just drop the "Death to Israel" schtick and accept a two state solution. Yet, there's still the part where -

He would not be surprised to see the massacres of families, of babies, of the elderly by Hamas because he knew its brutality already. Like many people from Gaza, my father knew that if you spoke up against these tyrannical oppressors, you were swiftly dealt with. And your family, too, for good measure. Hamas has never shied away from violence.

And -

“I now understand that their jails are full of honorable people,” one Palestinian says. “Anyone who tries to think for himself winds up there.” He uploaded to social media a video of Hamas police beating a child with Down syndrome and received thousands of supportive messages before being arrested. Others in the series describe the harassment, violence, cruelty, corruption, and even murder of Palestinians by Hamas. A mother shares her refusal to allow Hamas to turn her children into terrorists. “I don’t want my children to be exposed to that indoctrination,” she says. “I want them to think rationally.”

Only 7% of Gazans surveyed say conditions there are positive. Yet those who disagree with Hamas’s message or methods, or simply ask for better living conditions, are labeled “traitors” and “Zionist collaborators.” In other words, there’s no way to tell how many of the Palestinians in the videos depicting the celebration of terrorism are there because they support such attacks and how many are there merely to protect themselves and their families from Hamas.

As soon as the series was released, Hamas attempted to sabotage the films’ distribution platforms. Shortly thereafter, fake versions of the shorts appeared with Hamas-approved narration. (The Hamas-created counterfeits have been flagged as copyright violations and taken off various media platforms.) As CPC president Joseph Braude explained in the Times of Israel:

Their content predictably twists the testimony. For example, in one of our clips, the speaker explains that under Hamas, “it’s forbidden to say we don’t want war,” and change must “come from the people.” In the Hamas version, “The solution is in the Resistance, none other” and “though we’ve endured four wars, we stand with the Resistance and will never ever give them up.” in another clip, “Amna” describes her fear of sending her children to Hamas-run schools “where they indoctrinate people.” The Hamas version has the speaker proudly sending her children to a Hamas school for an upright Islamic education.

Bear in mind that by only acknowledging the superficial pretexts that Hamas hides behind, what you're actually supporting is much the opposite of what you're ostensibly trying to support.
 
ANd that is the tragedy of the Palestinian people: they have never had good leadership. Thye hbave never found a Gandhi or a Mandela.
Their leadership has always been corrupt and Intept, or bunch of fanatics or a combination of both.
And the attempts t portray HAMAS as some kind of baiscally benign organization with a unfortunate few fanatics is so messed up as to be ridiculous.
I am really shocked so many here are taking that position.

HAMAS is a mixture of many things. It's the Muslim institutions, it's the Red Crescent, it's the UNRWA, it's the Tourism Ministry, the Licensing Bureau, it's Garbage Collections.

We shall see soon enough what's the real meaning of "destroy HAMAS" --- I'm pretty sure that the elimination of Sinwar (and Deif, if the IDF can locate that slippery guy) will be a point in this war where the Israelis can say, "OK, we're done, head of HAMAS removed, carry on..."
(see: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin)
 
Good luck convincing Egypt to give up their land.

Egypt is broke. They don't have two shekels to rub together.

Northern Sinai is a nightmare of instability for them, with local Bedouins, ISIS wanna-be's, Palestinian jihadists of all stripes.
General Sisi would like nothing better than to put the whole kit and kaboodle into the welcoming arms of a Sovereign NewState of Palestine, which would then be obligated to take control and end the lawless ruckus of that area.

And, for the record, Egypt has agreed to give up their land, with Saudi Arabia paying a tidy sum for two islands, Tiran and Sanafir, in the Red Sea.
 
Egypt is broke. They don't have two shekels to rub together.

Northern Sinai is a nightmare of instability for them, with local Bedouins, ISIS wanna-be's, Palestinian jihadists of all stripes.
General Sisi would like nothing better than to put the whole kit and kaboodle into the welcoming arms of a Sovereign NewState of Palestine, which would then be obligated to take control and end the lawless ruckus of that area.

And, for the record, Egypt has agreed to give up their land, with Saudi Arabia paying a tidy sum for two islands, Tiran and Sanafir, in the Red Sea.

Keep dreaming. Your Fantasy New State of Palestine is not going to happen, Even if there is Palestinain state, it will not resemble your pipe dream.
 
HAMAS released it first hostage video. Zero critticism of HAMAS from the west. Taking Hostages is OK with many Progressives, I guess.
 
HAMAS released it first hostage video. Little outrage from the left. Guess hostage taking is fine with them.
 
Hamas is a pro-terrorism and anti-"Israel gets to exist" organization by definition, in their own words, and that is a fact and it is not up for debate.

There own charter, their own defining document states called for the creation of a Palestinian state IN PLACE OF Israel, is "where Israel is at right now."

Direct quote. ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″ That's the "We the People" part of the Hamas charter.

And again for all you proud Lefties simping for it, Hamas is blatantly misogynistic, and I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just guess that their stance on gay rights probably isn't a thing. Again THEY WOULD KILL PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD.

Hamas is everything you all hate and put on big airs about being too good to negotiate with when it comes to the Republicans times 1,000.
 
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