Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[JoeMorgue]

I dimly recall hearing something in the news recently about Hamas maybe having done something unpleasant to Israel. Can't remember what it was, but Israel seemed a little annoyed by it. Perhaps Israel might even reconsider the matter on whether Hamas is or isn't a threat.

That was valid and noble striking back against an Apartheid state is what we are being told we have to treat that as.

Good luck all the Muslim countries killed or ran out all the Jews that lived in so nobody is being Apartheid'ed because apparently that's better.

Can't discriminate against your minorities if you're a mono-culture!

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Again I don't see you calling on those countries to make special enclaves for Jews to live in. The Muslim countries are not being asked to share.

Again "Only people of this religion get to live here" is only a problem for you when the Jews do it.

I'm not sure you've even read my posts, beyond skimming enough to build the next strawman.

Good luck all the Muslim countries killed or ran out all the Jews that lived in so nobody is being Apartheid'ed because apparently that's better.

History time! When did this happen? You keep asserting it as a fact and insisting I wouldn't object, post some instances and let's go over them! That's gotta be more interesting than just going back and forth over the same topics, right?

One condition though: every single bit of justice you want for the Jews in your example, you have to be prepared to extend to the Palestinians in the current situation. If we agree Jews are collectively owed reparations or should have their land returned, so do the Palestinians. If we agree it was an atrocity at the time but water under the bridge ten centuries later or whatever, you can stop defending the atrocities now and pick up the issue in another ten centuries. Sound good?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm not sure you've even read my posts, beyond skimming enough to build the next strawman.

Dude you're not complicated. You're a bog standard "I'm totally on both sides no reallzies I totally am... but I literally only actually criticize one side and spend all my argumentative time and effort defending one and only one side of the argument."

I've pissed all over Israel and Palestine/Hamas enough to not care what side you think I'm on. I don't think you can say the same.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

obviously Hamas is a Threat - just not an existential one.

which is what I said.
And what some people dispute.

 

[JoeMorgue]

History time! When did this happen? You keep asserting it as a fact and insisting I wouldn't object, post some instances and let's go over them! That's gotta be more interesting than just going back and forth over the same topics, right?

....
..
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No. ******* no. I am not going to have a "civil debate" about you about why Muslim countries don't have a lot of Jews living in them. No. I'm just not doing it. I'm not going to prove antisemtism from first principles.

If you want to believe all those Muslim countries would just welcome a bunch of Jewish immigrants with open arms... again I don't know how to talk you.

One condition though: every single bit of justice you want for the Jews in your example, you have to be prepared to extend to the Palestinians in the current situation. If we agree Jews are collectively owed reparations or should have their land returned, so do the Palestinians. If we agree it was an atrocity at the time but water under the bridge ten centuries later or whatever, you can stop defending the atrocities now and pick up the issue in another ten centuries. Sound good?

No. Again no. There's a 10 bajillion square miles of land around that area that are Muslim, speak the language, have the same culture, the ethnic backgrounds as Palestinians that's just sitting empty that's just not good enough, no they have to be on the same spot where the Jews are.

That isn't fairness. It's a forced affectation of the illusion of fairness. "Everybody gets a piece even if they don't it or really want it, they just don't want the other side to get anything."

If you take away Israel and the Jews have nothing. You take away Palestine and oh noes now have to live in one of the other dozens Muslim countries that's 10 feet away, oh noes the horror.

And again this is just because we've decided that "Religions deserve a country" is a thing which it shouldn't be but if you get to decide what arbitrary level we're starting at so do I.

My actual honest opinion? The whole Middle East, Israel included, (and a lot of the rest of the world) should be pariah'ed for the whole "We're a country for this one religion" thing. It's absurd this is still a factor in 2023.

 

[bobdroege7]

obviously Hamas is a Threat - just not an existential one.

which is what I said.
And what some people dispute.

To individual Israelis or to the State of Israel?

 

[Darat]

I dimly recall hearing something in the news recently about Hamas maybe having done something unpleasant to Israel. Can't remember what it was, but Israel seemed a little annoyed by it. Perhaps Israel might even reconsider the matter on whether Hamas is or isn't a threat.

They are a threat to anyone in Israel, they are not an existential threat to the country of Israel.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I've pissed all over Israel and Palestine/Hamas enough to not care what side you think I'm on.

No you haven't. You've pissed on people arguing about Israel and Palestine/Hamas. You've smugly dismissed everyone else and when confronted all you've come up with yourself is whatabouts and first principles while complaining about whataboutism and arguments from first principles.

My actual honest opinion? The whole Middle East, Israel included, (and a lot of the rest of the world) should be pariah'ed for the whole "We're a country for this one religion" thing. It's absurd this is still a factor in 2023.

Well, tell that to this guy, he sure seems to think religion ought to matter:

No. Again no. There's a 10 bajillion square miles of land around that area that are Muslim, speak the language, have the same culture, the ethnic backgrounds as Palestinians that's just sitting empty that's just not good enough, no they have to be on the same spot where the Jews are.

No. ******* no. I am not going to have a "civil debate" about you about why Muslim countries don't have a lot of Jews living in them. No. I'm just not doing it. I'm not going to prove antisemtism from first principles.

If you don't want to talk about it, stop bringing it up. I am not sea lioning you, good sir, simply leave the assertion in the orifice designated for such.

 

[TragicMonkey]

obviously Hamas is a Threat - just not an existential one.

What's a few rockets between friends, eh?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm sorry I must have missed when things had to reach "existential threat" before they became a problem. When did that become the goalpost?

And again Israel has been under an existential threat since the day it was created. The surrounding Muslim countries don't want it to exist and have made that clear since day one. I don't know how to argue with someone who doesn't get that.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

To individual Israelis or to the State of Israel?

is the State of Israel an existential threat to the people of Gaza?

 

[TragicMonkey]

They are a threat to anyone in Israel, they are not an existential threat to the country of Israel.

I disagree. A country that cannot protect its people from attack is failing as a country. It is a primary responsibility and function of being a nation at all.

 

[bobdroege7]

is the State of Israel an existential threat to the people of Gaza?

Not in the slightest.

An existential threat to Hamas, and any Palestinians who murder peaceful Israelis.

How about Egypt and Jordan, who refuse to take in any Palestinian refugees.

The rest of the Arab world is an existential threat to the Palestinians, if the Arab world doesn't give a **** about the Palestinians, why should Israel?

 

[Darat]

What's a few rockets between friends, eh?

Believe it or not - yes. Like the troubles in my country, individuals were (and are) threatened by the terrorists, but the country isn't.

 

[JoeMorgue]

is the State of Israel an existential threat to the people of Gaza?

There's a school. In this school there are 10 classrooms. They teach Math in 9 of them. They teach Geology in 1 of them. In the Geology class ~20% want to learn Math and not Geology.

You're solution is to make the Geology teacher spend more time teaching math and instead of the students who want to learn math just going to one of the math classes that already exists.

The Palestinians want a Muslim-sub-state inside the Jewish state even though the tiny Jewish state is floating in a sea of Muslims states.

You can't look at that situation and come to the conclusion that the Jewish state becoming more Muslim is sanest solution.

 

[Darat]

I disagree. A country that cannot protect its people from attack is failing as a country. It is a primary responsibility and function of being a nation at all.

Then you need to put the USA on that list of failing countries. And pretty much every other country in the world.

Terrorism even on the scale of the recent Hamas atrocity has zero chance of ending the existence of Israel, like the 9/11 terrorist attack had zero chance of ending the existence of the USA.

Until we have a complete surveillance society terrorists will always be able to threaten the citizens of a country.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

There's a school. In this school there are 10 classrooms. They teach Math in 9 of them. They teach Geology in 1 of them. In the Geology class ~20% want to learn Math and not Geology.

You're solution is to make the Geology teacher spend more time teaching math and instead of the students who want to learn math just going to one of the math classes that already exists.

The Palestinians want a Muslim-sub-state inside the Jewish state even though the tiny Jewish state is floating in a sea of Muslims states.

You can't look at that situation and come to the conclusion that the Jewish state becoming more Muslim is sanest solution.

My actual honest opinion? The whole school should be pariah'ed for the whole "We're a classroom for one subject" thing. It's absurd this is still a factor in 2023.

 

[JoeMorgue]

My actual honest opinion? The whole school should be pariah'ed for the whole "We're a classroom for one subject" thing. It's absurd this is still a factor in 2023.

"Notice me Hamas-senpai! I'm one of the good ones!"

They would still drag you into the street and chop your head off, no matter how much you simp for them.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

"Notice me Hamas-senpai! I'm one of the good ones!"

They would still drag you into the street and chop your head off, no matter how much you simp for them.

The important thing is that you can still feel superior about it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The important thing is that you can still feel superior about it.

... what am I feeling superior about here? That I'm NOT running a PR campaign for a group of people who would murder me the second they had the chance?