Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[pipelineaudio]

I may be reading this wrong, but it seems like there are people in this thread who in spite of Hamas' actual charter and constant statements to the contrary, believe that israel can negotiate a peaceful existence with Hamas. Please let me know if this is you so I can clean up my feed

 

[dudalb]

You are certainly using persuasive arguments

First of all, letting the revenge cycle go on and on would be anti-Semitic according to your expanded definition. Secondly, it is just as strange how your hatred divides everything up in black and white. Apparently, you couldn’t find something worse to say about Hamas than that they are “ISIS”, putting two evil organisations in the same basket, although they have practically nothing in common.

This is a situation nobody can win. Hamas cannot be exterminated, even though we would all want it (yes, even I would want it). Even if Israel would seek a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem, there would be plenty of Palestinians outside Gaza and the West Bank who would continue the revenge cycle. A defanged Hamas is all Israel can hope for, but the more war crimes Israel commits to achieve this, the more support in money and weapons will flow to a resurrected Hamas. Is that a good thing?

If Israel would attempt to react with moderation (and there are signs that they will not rush into the fully fledged genocide that some leaders proclaimed) there is the chance that they can weaken Hamas sufficiently that non-Hamas Palestinians can gain traction. But this will be difficult if the Palestinians are held in enforced poverty.

Hamas might still survive, but could be forced to moderation if moderate Palestinians gain influence.

What part of HAMAS sole goal is the destruction of Isreal don't you understand?

 

[dudalb]

I may be reading this wrong, but it seems like there are people in this thread who in spite of Hamas' actual charter and constant statements to the contrary, believe that israel can negotiate a peaceful existence with Hamas. Please let me know if this is you so I can clean up my feed

Exactly.
I also love the HAMAS might moderate it's policies argument. We heard that when HAMAS took power in 2006, and look how that turned out?
They bought into a bening view of HAMAS, and some of them, no doubt, don;t like to admit they were wrong.

 

[dudalb]

Quite sincerely why? Why does it make it worse if they decapitate the babies rather than use a bullet or a rocket?

It is called intent.HAMAS delibertly targered childern.

 

[dudalb]

Its the killing innocents less efficiently as possible to make it more gruesome and horrifying to the surviving population that is whats clear to me. It makes it extra-special-bad. Of course, thats terrorism.

"Resistence to Israel is not terrorism"
"Reisentece by any means necessary"

Slogans seen at many Pro Palestinain rallies over the past week. And we all know what they refer to.

Not to meniont that whole Hostage taking thing..which I note many here seem to want to avoid.

 

[Planigale]

"Resistence to Israel is not terrorism"
"Reisentece by any means necessary"

Slogans seen at many Pro Palestinain rallies over the past week. And we all know what they refer to.

Not to meniont that whole Hostage taking thing..which I note many here seem to want to avoid.

These are just words. This is what negotiation is about.

An example;

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'

After negotiations - slavery.

 

[Ziggurat]

These are just words.

No. They are statements of values. People don't always live up to their values, but they strive towards them.

This is what negotiation is about.

It's very hard to negotiate away your values. They have a way of creeping back in.

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'

After negotiations - slavery.

Notably, that slavery wasn't stable, because it contradicted core American values. The negotiated solution didn't last, we returned to liberty. And if Hamas negotiates away their desire to kill Jews, that's not going to be stable either. Jew killing will creep back in.

 

[theprestige]

When Moscow says that Ukrainians aren't a real people, that Ukraine isn't a real country, and that the final solution to the problem of Ukraine is annexation and ethnic cleansing, we take them at their word. When Palestinians say the exact same thing about Israel, we (some of us) say, "they're the good guys, stop worrying about their rhetoric. "

 

[dudalb]

These are just words. This is what negotiation is about.

An example;

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'

After negotiations - slavery.

And you dodge the issue of Hostages.
Peace at any price..whcih what you are advocating never brings real peace.

 

[dudalb]

No. They are statements of values. People don't always live up to their values, but they strive towards them.



It's very hard to negotiate away your values. They have a way of creeping back in.



Notably, that slavery wasn't stable, because it contradicted core American values. The negotiated solution didn't last, we returned to liberty. And if Hamas negotiates away their desire to kill Jews, that's not going to be stable either. Jew killing will creep back in.

Hatred and contempt for the US has been fashionable among the Euro Far Left for a long,long, time.

 

[Planigale]

No. They are statements of values. People don't always live up to their values, but they strive towards them.



It's very hard to negotiate away your values. They have a way of creeping back in.



Notably, that slavery wasn't stable, because it contradicted core American values. The negotiated solution didn't last, we returned to liberty. And if Hamas negotiates away their desire to kill Jews, that's not going to be stable either. Jew killing will creep back in.

So we could allow ninety years of negotiation (between independence and abolition of slavery) for Hmas to change their policy on Israel?. When the US lost the war of 1812, as part of the peace treaty they agreed to abolish slavery, but it took the US fifty years to actually enforce their commitment under international law. So would you allow fifty years?

 

[Planigale]

And you dodge the issue of Hostages.
Peace at any price..whcih what you are advocating never brings real peace.

Peace is peace.

Violence is horror, terror, pain, death

perhaps all these things are things you want?

 

[Planigale]

When Moscow says that Ukrainians aren't a real people, that Ukraine isn't a real country, and that the final solution to the problem of Ukraine is annexation and ethnic cleansing, we take them at their word. When Palestinians say the exact same thing about Israel, we (some of us) say, "they're the good guys, stop worrying about their rhetoric. "

Although the difference would be that Russia says Ukrainians are synonymous with Russians, that Ukrainians are equal and the same as Russians. israelis are saying that Palestinians cannot be part of Israel, some members of the government openly argue for ethic cleansing and driving Palestinians out of 'Greater Israel'. Palestinians are not recognised as equal to Israelis. They would not be permitted to be Israeli citizens.

This does not mean I support violence by Russia. It just means like most analogies it fails when you look at the details.

 

[dudalb]

So we could allow ninety years of negotiation (between independence and abolition of slavery) for Hmas to change their policy on Israel?. When the US lost the war of 1812, as part of the peace treaty they agreed to abolish slavery, but it took the US fifty years to actually enforce their commitment under international law. So would you allow fifty years?

WHere did you get that crap?
Treaty of Ghent has a clause in which the US agreed to try to help to supress the slave trade...it said nothing about the domestic instituion of Slavery. Hell, it took Great Britian until 1834 to abolish slavery as an instituion (though the Slave Trade was abolished in 1807).
And the war of 1812 was a draw. Nobody really won.

 

[dudalb]

Peace is peace.

Violence is horror, terror, pain, death

perhaps all these things are things you want?

Remember 'Peace in Our time? ANd how well did that turn out?

 

[theprestige]

So we could allow ninety years of negotiation (between independence and abolition of slavery) for Hmas to change their policy on Israel?. When the US lost the war of 1812, as part of the peace treaty they agreed to abolish slavery, but it took the US fifty years to actually enforce their commitment under international law. So would you allow fifty years?

Ironically, slavery in the US would probably have been peacefully abolished within another generation. Kicking off a violent and destructive civil war that cost over 600,000 lives was probably the worst possible way to go about it.

I for one would welcome a hundred years of peaceful negotiations with Hamas, a slow and ultimately amicable reconciliation of opposing factions. It's pretty obvious that much of Israel wants the same. It's also pretty obvious that Hamas and their Arab (and Persian) state sponsors aren't interested in a slow peaceful process of reconciliation. They'd rather get right into the violence and destruction and thousands killed.

 

[Planigale]

Remember 'Peace in Our time? ANd how well did that turn out?

'Jaw, jaw is better than war, war' Winston Churchill.

 

[dudalb]

'Jaw, jaw is better than war, war' Winston Churchill.

Nice dodge of the question: How well did the "Peace" between Germany and the UK at Munich work?

Do you think the UK shoudl have gone to war with Germany when Germany invaded Poland?

 

[Planigale]

Ironically, slavery in the US would probably have been peacefully abolished within another generation. Kicking off a violent and destructive civil war that cost over 600,000 lives was probably the worst possible way to go about it.

I for one would welcome a hundred years of peaceful negotiations with Hamas, a slow and ultimately amicable reconciliation of opposing factions. It's pretty obvious that much of Israel wants the same. It's also pretty obvious that Hamas and their Arab (and Persian) state sponsors aren't interested in a slow peaceful process of reconciliation. They'd rather get right into the violence and destruction and thousands killed.

Actually most of the evidence (e.g. Palestinian Authority, PLO*, Egypt, d/w saudi) suggest that Arabs are prepared to enter in to peace with Israel. Iran is subject to repeated terrorist attacks by Israeli state agencies, there is very little evidence that Israel wants peace. Peace would be counter to the ethos of Israel as a citizen army, it would impact on the massive security and industry-military complex. israel has become a modern day Sparta defined by its military ethos.

*Remember how Israel betrayed the PLO, they (PLO) agreed to withdraw their military from refugee camps and then the massacres began. The IDF allowed the massacre of more civilian Palestinians than Hamas committed. Yet the PLO persisted with peace. Surely Israel can be more forgiving than Palestinians? By any measure more Palestinians have been killed by israel than vice versa. All Palestinians will see in the West Bank where the PA has committed to peaceful approach is the murder of Palestinians by israeli settlers and the displacement of Palestinians from their land.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/16/west-bank-violence-becky-anderson-cnc-vpx.cnn

But Israelis killing Palestinians is not terrorism. The IDF are not there to police, they are there to protect Israelis, so they cannot be blamed for protecting the settlers that carry out the attacks, that is their job, to protect those who murder / and intimidate unarmed Palestinians driving them off their land. That is the IDF doing their job. The IDF are there to make sure the Palestinians do not defend themselves.

 

[dudalb]

Death to Israel. Got it.