The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Jack by the hedge]

Someone who is wrong or deluded can be perfectly serious.

Someone who is wrong or deluded almost all of the time can be both seriously wrong and seriously deluded.

In a Monty Python book I seem to remember the cheese shop sketch was proposed as the basis of a game. The person acting as proprietor had to keep inventing reasons why they did not have whichever cheese the customers asked for next without ever admitting they did not actually have any cheese at all.

I don't recall whether the proprietor was also required to tell themselves they were the smartest person in the room because they imagined the customers did not know they were playing a game.

Don't know what made me think of that fifty years on.

 

[GlennB]

In a Monty Python book I seem to remember the cheese shop sketch was proposed as the basis of a game. The person acting as proprietor had to keep inventing reasons why they did not have whichever cheese the customers asked for next without ever admitting they did not actually have any cheese at all.

I don't recall whether the proprietor was also required to tell themselves they were the smartest person in the room because they imagined the customers did not know they were playing a game.

Don't know what made me think of that fifty years on.

"Venezuelan beaver cheese?"

"Not as such ..."

"Radioactive caesium cheese?"

"Sorry sir, a delivery was due but the van fell off the front of a ferry"

MP's Papperbok?

 

[Vixen]

What is 'gushing' or 'schoolboy'?

Insert a few choice schoolboy words and it is pure Boy's Own.

The spooks rescued from the gulag rejoiced in their freedom, in some cases too soon (hee, hee). One of them, Ivan ‘Ginger’ Kavinsky, danced about 'Spotty' Sudoplatov's flat in the jolly three-piece suit with which he had been issued in place of prison denims. How frightfully wonderful it was, Ginger exulted, to be acknowledged at last as a patriot. Yar-ooo! Hours later, he was dispatched to serve as a stay-behind spy in Zhitomir, deep in Ukraine, which was about to be overrun by the Jerries. Crikey!! There, he was almost immediately snitched on by swarthy Ukrainians, as many other servants of Moscow were betrayed. Cripes!!! Arriving at a rendezvous and sensing a trap, Ginger shot himself. Blimey!

with apologies to Max Hastings.

 

[Vixen]

You know the same facts we do. You just joined a few dots and turned that into an episode of the X-files in your head. There was no communications blackout.

So Tammes was lying? As were the captains and second captains of Mariella and Europa?

 

[Vixen]

Margus Kurm has zero credibility. And it is clear from both the photos and new simulations the damage was from impacting the bottom. No conspiracy, Kurm is a liar. End of story.

What? Margus Kurm is a highly respected public prosecutor. He represents the Estonian people of which 300 were victims that night when the MV Estonia sunk. Like many reputable people he is sceptical of the JAIC account. Are you claiming that people from 'little countries' should keep quiet because of your belief that big countries like Sweden and the USA should take over.? If - heaven forfend! - you or your fellow Californians were ever involved in a major disaster you would want someone representing you and your fellow Californians' interests, too, not hijacked by faceless suits in Washington.

 

[Vixen]

Which ironically makes it far more likely that the word actually pertains to the flow of current (=power) in the device, as opposed to anything concerning the frequency of the transmitted signal.

In other words: the EPIRB going from a state of no current flowing, to a state in which current was flowing.

In other words, the switching on of power to the EPIRB (which in this model of EPIRB was solely by way of a manually-operated switch).


<snip invective>

Wrong. As in English, 'switch on' and 'turned on' are distinct from 'to tune', 'tuned to' and 'tuning'.

 

[Vixen]

Someone who is wrong or deluded can be perfectly serious.

Someone who is wrong or deluded almost all of the time can be both seriously wrong and seriously deluded.

Is this a personalization?

 

[ferd burfle]

What? Margus Kurm is a highly respected public prosecutor. He represents the Estonian people of which 300 were victims that night when the MV Estonia sunk. Like many reputable people he is sceptical of the JAIC account. Are you claiming that people from 'little countries' should keep quiet because of your belief that big countries like Sweden and the USA should take over.? If - heaven forfend! - you or your fellow Californians were ever involved in a major disaster you would want someone representing you and your fellow Californians' interests, too, not hijacked by faceless suits in Washington.

Enough of the strawman shaming, ok? It's never worked and it just reads like faux virtue signaling, even when you include the part about women and babies.

I came across a line in a novel I’m rereading that's appropriate here: “…every conspiracy theory serves in some way to aggrandize the believer”.

 

[GlennB]

Enough of the strawman shaming, ok? It's never worked and it just reads like faux virtue signaling, even when you include the part about women and babies.

I came across a line in a novel I’m rereading that's appropriate here: “…every conspiracy theory serves to aggrandize the believer”.

Yep, and it deserves bolding.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So Tammes was lying? As were the captains and second captains of Mariella and Europa?

There was no communications blackout.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Insert a few choice schoolboy words and it is pure Boy's Own.

with apologies to Max Hastings.

So if you change what was written it is different?

Is that how you usually work?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Wrong. As in English, 'switch on' and 'turned on' are distinct from 'to tune', 'tuned to' and 'tuning'.

In that case anyone who says the crew should have 'tuned' their EPIRBs doesn't understand these devices and their remarks on the subject should be treated as unreliable.

 

[Vixen]

Enough of the strawman shaming, ok? It's never worked and it just reads like faux virtue signaling, even when you include the part about women and babies.

I came across a line in a novel I’m rereading that's appropriate here: “…every conspiracy theory serves in some way to aggrandize the believer”.

For crying out loud, the reinvestigation of the MV Estonia is current news and not your imagination.

 

[Vixen]

There was no communications blackout.

You haven't been keeping up.

 

[Mojo]

Deleted

 

[Vixen]

In that case anyone who says the crew should have 'tuned' their EPIRBs doesn't understand these devices and their remarks on the subject should be treated as unreliable.

As the documentation for the EPIRB's and the EPIRB's themselves are now missing - according to YLE journalists who wanted to access the material - we may now never know what the JAIC meant in Jan 1995 when it said the EPIRB's were 'untuned' and 'switched off'.

Think of a radio that is tuned 'off' any station and also switched off, then it will become apparent it is possible for both conditions to coexist.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You haven't been keeping up.

What changed?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

we may now never know what the JAIC meant

You mean what Lehtola meant.

 

[Andy_Ross]

As the documentation for the EPIRB's and the EPIRB's themselves are now missing - according to YLE journalists who wanted to access the material - we may now never know what the JAIC meant in Jan 1995 when it said the EPIRB's were 'untuned' and 'switched off'.

Think of a radio that is tuned 'off' any station and also switched off, then it will become apparent it is possible for both conditions to coexist.

We know exactly what model they were.
They were manual only activation

 

[Vixen]

What changed?

To recap:

• the JAIC confirm the bow visor fell off at 01:02.
• Ainsalu's first may day received by a nearby ship (Mariella) was at 01:21.
• Captn Thoresson of Mariella had to turn his receiver up to maximum to hear Ainsalu.
• Ainsalu could not give the second Captain of Europa his location because he was not on the bridge to see it.
• Tammes the third captain then came on and was cut off at 01:24 with a location 8" out.
• Capt. Seppanen of Europa said he had the impression MV Estonia could not hear him.
• Ainsalu and Tammes were using handheld walkie talkies outside the bridge.
• What was happening on the bridge - why wasn't the bridge sending out the mayday?
• Captn Thoresson had to ring up MRCC Turku on their landline number as they were not picking up radio communication.
• MRCC did not get through to MRCC Mariehamn in the Ålands until 01:44
• Helsinki Radio did not get the correct location until 01:44.
• MRCC Stockholm did not get the may day until 01:58. The ship hit the seabed 01:54.
• MRCC Stockholm logs show it put rescue into action at 02:02.
• Finnish Coastguard Commander Iivesson told JAIC that there was a signal from a Russian base that constantly blocked Channel 16 and on this night, Channel 2122 - a general radio communications channel across the Baltic - as well.
• In his mayday, Tammes, or Ainsalu, advised there was a 'blackout'.

So between 01:02 - when the bow visor fell off - to 02:02 when MRCC Stockholm finally effected rescue, there was a communications blackout. Plus the EPIRB's failed to emit location as they should have done.

If there was 'no communications blackout' explain in which way?