Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[JoeMorgue]

I feel like we're gonna have to have a "Is collateral damage the same thing as murder/terrorism" discussion sooner or later.

 

[ThatGuy11200]

Speaking of collateral damage.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...-israel-hamas-war_uk_6528edb2e4b0a304ff6fa871

 

[lobosrul5]

I feel like we're gonna have to have a "Is collateral damage the same thing as murder/terrorism" discussion sooner or later.

The Dispatch Podcast guys made a good point of, well we'll see the anti-Israel bias if this is portrayed differently from the anti-ISIS siege of Mosul. Then it was: yeah theres collateral damage, but its ISIS, they have to be destroyed. Now what will the story be? Anyone still thinking Hamas isn't as bad as ISIS after last weekend... uhh get your head examined.

 

[dudalb]

If the world was run on the grounds you suggest, the thirteen colonies would still be English and all you Yankee rebels would be living on somewhere like Kergeulen.

Never read about George Washington killing babies and taking people Hostage.

 

[dudalb]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-progressives-who-flunked-the-hamas-test/ar-AA1i9H6k

I think the term for these people is "Useful Idiots" for HAMAS.

HAMAS have called for "Days of Rage" in The US over the next few days. let's see how many of these idiots show up.

 

[dudalb]

The Double Post Gremlin strikes again.

 

[lobosrul5]

If the world was run on the grounds you suggest, the thirteen colonies would still be English and all you Yankee rebels would be living on somewhere like Kergeulen.

If the world was run the way you, and some other people on this thread suggest... US white Americans would be sent back to the UK... or in many cases Ireland, or in other cases Germany. Or in my case split between about 5 different countries as far as a family history could tell and sent back in a box.

The analogy between Israel in 2023, and the USA in 1776 is pathetically awful BTW. That was a war between rich white guys in the UK, and mostly rich white guys in the USA for various reasons really. Neither side giving a flying **** about the native population except where they could use them.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"But you are lynching negros" - The USSR anytime they ever did anything wrong and America called them on it.

 

[dudalb]

If the world was run the way you, and some other people on this thread suggest... US white Americans would be sent back to the UK... or in many cases Ireland, or in other cases Germany. Or in my case split between about 5 different countries as far as a family history could tell and sent back in a box.

The analogy between Israel in 2023, and the USA in 1776 is pathetically awful BTW. That was a war between rich white guys in the UK, and mostly rich white guys in the USA for various reasons really. Neither side giving a flying **** about the native population except where they could use them.

Well, Gulliver suggested in a previous post that the Jews in Israel buy land somenwher else and emigrate there......

 

[dudalb]

Let's see how HAMAS's 'calls for "Days Of Rage" truns out in the US.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

And?

We're well past the end of WW2. We can't go back and redo the formation of Israel somewhere else. Do you want to destroy Israel? If so, what actions are you willing to take to achieve that, in the face of armed resistance? Are you willing to kill all the Jews, as Hamas is? Kill enough of them to make the rest surrender? How exactly would you dismantle the state?

If you do not want to destroy Israel, then you need to deal with the reality of their existence, and counterfactuals about what might have been don't matter.



Yeah, because nobody ever promised to behave and then didn't. Great idea.

We are, but it is possible to acknowledge that the formation of Israel as it was done was wholly unjust to the population living in the country that got appropriated by a colonial power which gave the best 60% of the country to immigrants with no roots there. After all, they had nothing to do with the crimes committed in Europe by Europeans against Europeans.

It's too late and equally unjust now to evict the (great)grand children of those colonists, but accepting that the land grab was not justifiable where it took place and perhaps reimbursing those that are still affected would go some way towards healing those wounds.

Perhaps offer every Palestinian willing to emigrate away and renouncing their claims 100K dollars per family member would allow them to go somewhere and be welcomed? And in the long run that might be cheaper than the costs of this continuous war.

 

[Ziggurat]

Perhaps offer every Palestinian willing to emigrate away and renouncing their claims 100K dollars per family member would allow them to go somewhere and be welcomed?

Gaza has an average family size of 5.6, so with a population of around 2 million, that's around 360,000 families. If you offer them $100K per family, that's potentially up to $36 billion. Which is a lot of money.

But the money isn't really the problem. The real problem is, where would they go? Nobody wants them. Are you going to force someone to accept them? What happens if they're not welcome wherever they end up? Do we just repeat the cycle?

And what about all the Jews who were forced out of homes in other Arab states, or in areas that are now Palestinian? Do they get reparations too? Or were they insufficiently violent to deserve recompense?

I understand the impulse, but it's not a real solution.

 

[dudalb]

Putin seems to be de facto spporting HAMAS. No surprise there the have so much in common, KMurdering Civilians, Kidnapping children, etc.

 

[trustbutverify]

We are, but it is possible to acknowledge that the formation of Israel as it was done was wholly unjust to the population living in the country that got appropriated by a colonial power which gave the best 60% of the country to immigrants with no roots there. After all, they had nothing to do with the crimes committed in Europe by Europeans against Europeans.

It's too late and equally unjust now to evict the (great)grand children of those colonists, but accepting that the land grab was not justifiable where it took place and perhaps reimbursing those that are still affected would go some way towards healing those wounds.

Perhaps offer every Palestinian willing to emigrate away and renouncing their claims 100K dollars per family member would allow them to go somewhere and be welcomed? And in the long run that might be cheaper than the costs of this continuous war.

I pretty much agree.

 

[crescent]

Putin seems to be de facto spporting HAMAS. No surprise there the have so much in common, KMurdering Civilians, Kidnapping children, etc.

Which could bite him in the butt.

Israel has been only weakly supportive of Ukraine. I think they've got some military training going on, but they're not sending any advanced weapons systems to Ukraine.

There is a reason for that, many Jewish Russian immigrants in Israel.

But those Russian-heritage Israelis could soon be forced to recognize a hard truth about their old nation. And be more understanding of others who resist Russian dominance. That could result in some very effective weapons systems ending up in Ukraine.

ETA: Hamas has been loud and proud about Russia officially licensing them to manufacture AK-47s. That won't help Israel/Russia relations.

 

[dudalb]

Police in most major cities on full alert in case of violence during the Days of Rage protests this weekend.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Putin seems to be de facto spporting HAMAS. No surprise there the have so much in common, KMurdering Civilians, Kidnapping children, etc.

Russia, or its predecessor the USSR, has a long history of conflict with and support of militant groups acting against Israel to be fair.

 

[Aridas]

From the videos I have seen many of the Hamas terrorists appear to be wearing a uniform of sorts.

If they are this time? Good.

It also appears some of those Israelis killed were armed and were either 'civilian' security, off duty IDF out of uniform, or military reservists out of uniform. Others were armed on duty military in uniforms.

I'm not certain about the specifics here, but if Hamas was attacking, self-defense applies regardless.

If a Hamas was in a uniform and attacked armed on duty Israeli miltary does that entitle him to be considered a legitimate combatant, and to protection under the Geneva convention?

Honestly, I'm not certain off the top of my head. If I was the arbiter, a dangerous thing to read too much into when it comes to one who is not an expert like myself, I would say that the principles and goals behind the Geneva convention are the actually important thing. I would count them as if they were a legitimate combatant and grant them equal treatment to any other soldier. I would do that because I seek to encourage the wearing of uniforms to clearly distinguish between combatants and civilians and reduce the ensuing problems that result when the distinction is not clear.

If Israelis were not in uniform and opened fire on 'uniformed' Hamas should they be regarded as terrorists?

I say that the situation is important here when it comes to determining specifics. If said uniformed Hamas soldiers were attacking, self-defense applies. If the Israelis were attacking, they just indefensibly changed their status from civilian to enemy combatant, with all the consequences that that entails.

"Terrorist" is a separate matter. To borrow a quick Googling's definition for ease and demonstration -

a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

I'd say that it's currently quite unlikely, but probably technically possible, that the Israelis should be deemed terrorists, depending on the specifics, but that determining that requires information not available in the question.

If Hamas gave a warning to people in a bunker to come out within five minutes or they would throw in a grenade does that provide them with the same justification as the IDF saying people have 24 hours to get out of North Gaza?

Unless I'm misunderstanding something notable - no. The IDF saying that is about giving Palestinian civilians time to get out of what's intended to become a war zone to reduce civilian casualties. As a general rule, "Come out from your bunker within 5 minutes or we'll grenade you" is all about forcing a confrontation in which one has to directly fight or surrender. For all the problems with the IDF's proclamation, those two situations are just not reasonably equatable.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Gaza has an average family size of 5.6, so with a population of around 2 million, that's around 360,000 families. If you offer them $100K per family, that's potentially up to $36 billion. Which is a lot of money.

But the money isn't really the problem. The real problem is, where would they go? Nobody wants them. Are you going to force someone to accept them? What happens if they're not welcome wherever they end up? Do we just repeat the cycle?

And what about all the Jews who were forced out of homes in other Arab states, or in areas that are now Palestinian? Do they get reparations too? Or were they insufficiently violent to deserve recompense?

I understand the impulse, but it's not a real solution.

It is, but what did this 60+ year war cost so far?
And hey, the US has a lot of land and is invested in keeping Israel safe, it could accept the Palestinians?

Of course this will never happen, but again, accepting that what happened to the Palestinians was unjust and that their descendants should have some form of recompense, at least on a level the displaced Jews you mentioned get from Israel would perhaps start a way to end this war.

Hamas is now getting justly punished for their atrocities against civilians. But in their, fully understandable, rage the IDF is committing atrocities against civilians. Individually not on the level that Hamas does, but on a far greater scale due to their disparity in firepower.
And the families of those victims will seek to avenge themselves down the line. Rinse and repeat

 

[Planigale]

How many babies were specifically executed by Israeli forces alone this year?

Well many of these 37 cases were shot in the back when running away. Contrary to the law and Israeli police guidelines. If a soldier shoots a child in the back that is no threat to him or others that would seem to meet criteria to be called execution.

We do not know how many of the children killed by Hamas were deliberately killed or were 'collateral damage' as the IDF often call it.

To be clear the actions of Hamas are criminal; but that does not justify IDF in committing war crimes.