Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Nessie]

The highlighted is the correct choice. Especially since they are, for the most part, ineffectual. I'm not sure how many casualties Hamas caused by their rockets versus in person terrorist hit-squads in the recent attack. But its probably no more than a percent or two.

Agreed, no rockets is the correct choice.

That means Palestinians should just accept they are second class citizens, to be ruled over by Israel and never fight back. They should be meek and just accept appalling conditions in Gaza as their lot in life.

But, if Palestinians should accept they cannot fight back, then no one is allowed to fight for a homeland. You cannot make rules for one group that means they cannot fight repression and the basic right to have somewhere they can call their national home.

 

[Ziggurat]

is there limit to that justification?

Sure, though there is no universal consensus as to where that limit is.

But even if something is beyond where you think that limit is, there's still a difference in doing something with insufficient justification and doing something with zero justification. Hamas regularly commits atrocities that have zero justification.

 

[Ziggurat]

Agreed, no rockets is the correct choice.

That means Palestinians should just accept they are second class citizens, to be ruled over by Israel and never fight back. They should be meek and just accept appalling conditions in Gaza as their lot in life.

That's really not true, at all. Had they followed Gandhi's tactics, they would have gained independence decades ago. True nonviolence doesn't work against all opponents, but it worked against the British, and it would have worked against Israel.

As for the appalling conditions in Gaza, that's primarily a result of Hamas. All the resources that they pour into making missiles and explosives and tunnels to attack Israel could have done so much to build up their economy, if only that's what they had chosen to focus on. But they didn't. Because to Hamas, killing Jews is more important than improving the lives of Gazans.

 

[lobosrul5]

Agreed, no rockets is the correct choice.

That means Palestinians should just accept they are second class citizens, to be ruled over by Israel and never fight back. They should be meek and just accept appalling conditions in Gaza as their lot in life.

But, if Palestinians should accept they cannot fight back, then no one is allowed to fight for a homeland. You cannot make rules for one group that means they cannot fight repression and the basic right to have somewhere they can call their national home.

Are you trying to compare Gaza/Israel to the war in Ukraine?!

Gaza is a mess that both the Palestinians and the Arab League largely made for themselves. Not to mention the fact that if Ukraine was down to launching a few rockets at Russia that caused a casualty or two a month in Russia then I'd say yeah its time to give it up.

The framing of the situation by some of the people on this forum is so beyond ignorant, its a long ways from reality.

ETA: Hamas needs to read the room. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia... even Lebanon are not coming rolling in to support them. They're just calling for cooler heads to prevail. They're just being used as peon cannon fodder for Iran and possibly Russian interests.

 

[Nessie]

.....


If their actions are indistinguishable from that of terrorists, calling them terrorists is quite defensible. If they're soldiers who are not in uniform, it's not a war crime to simply execute them, rather than treat them as a prisoner of war. The rules are that way specifically to discourage harm to actual civilians in the larger picture.

Why are they indistinguishable from terrorists?

1 - Palestine is not a country, that can claim it is defending itself, when Israel seizes land.
2 - By not being an internationally recognised country, they cannot have a what would be recognised as a uniformed army.

Theoretically, Hamas could organise themselves as an army, get uniforms etc, but the Israelis would then condemn that as an act of war. Israel has manoeuvred the Palestinians, literally into a corner, where anything they do, except do nothing, is easily condemned.

Hamas then also do what terrorists do, by attacking civilians, kidnapping, bombing and installing fear. Actual armies have also done the same. The lines are not clearly defined and people will forgive and condemn depending on their politics and sympathies.

The Hamas leadership are evil, violent men. Their choice is to roll over and accept Israeli control and **** lives for Palestinians, or be evil, violent men. Israel has failed to give them a way out, they have trapped them, with what they see as no option.

The answer is to legitimise Hamas, or another authoritative group, talk to them and allow a Palestinian country that is not just left with the scraps.

 

[lobosrul5]

Why are they indistinguishable from terrorists?

1 - Palestine is not a country, that can claim it is defending itself, when Israel seizes land.
2 - By not being an internationally recognised country, they cannot have a what would be recognised as a uniformed army.

Theoretically, Hamas could organise themselves as an army, get uniforms etc, but the Israelis would then condemn that as an act of war. Israel has manoeuvred the Palestinians, literally into a corner, where anything they do, except do nothing, is easily condemned.

Hamas then also do what terrorists do, by attacking civilians, kidnapping, bombing and installing fear. Actual armies have also done the same. The lines are not clearly defined and people will forgive and condemn depending on their politics and sympathies.

The Hamas leadership are evil, violent men. Their choice is to roll over and accept Israeli control and **** lives for Palestinians, or be evil, violent men. Israel has failed to give them a way out, they have trapped them, with what they see as no option.

The answer is to legitimise Hamas, or another authoritative group, talk to them and allow a Palestinian country that is not just left with the scraps.

Meanwhile in the real world... the lives of the actual Hamas leadership.

https://thearabweekly.com/hamas-leaders-seen-living-luxury-while-gazans-suffer

 

[Nessie]

That's really not true, at all. Had they followed Gandhi's tactics, they would have gained independence decades ago. True nonviolence doesn't work against all opponents, but it worked against the British, and it would have worked against Israel.

When the Israeli government announces that there will be a viable country called Palestine, once all the violence has stopped, then I will believe that.

As for the appalling conditions in Gaza, that's primarily a result of Hamas. All the resources that they pour into making missiles and explosives and tunnels to attack Israel could have done so much to build up their economy, if only that's what they had chosen to focus on. But they didn't. Because to Hamas, killing Jews is more important than improving the lives of Gazans.

The Palestinian people have been left with evil, violent leaders in Hamas. They have been left with terrible conditions in Gaza because the Israelis have fenced them in there, taking all the best land. Gaza would never have been allowed to develop into a mini state like Singapore, with power and wealth. The people have been let down by both sides with the power.

 

[Ziggurat]

Theoretically, Hamas could organise themselves as an army, get uniforms etc, but the Israelis would then condemn that as an act of war.

Wait... you think it's a problem that fighting a war might be called war?

What is wrong with you?

If you think killing people is justified, then what's the problem with calling it war? Wars can be justified. And if it's not justified, then why is condemning it bad?

You're completely incoherent.

The Hamas leadership are evil, violent men. Their choice is to roll over and accept Israeli control and **** lives for Palestinians, or be evil, violent men. Israel has failed to give them a way out, they have trapped them, with what they see as no option.

You really don't understand the nature of Hamas. They don't want a way out. They aren't interested in peace. Killing isn't just a means to accomplish other goal, killing IS the goal. They have always been quite open about that.

And there were always other options. This has always been a false dichotomy, one that you are using to excuse Hamas.

 

[Ziggurat]

When the Israeli government announces that there will be a viable country called Palestine, once all the violence has stopped, then I will believe that.

Why on earth do you think the violence would stop with a "viable country"?

The Palestinian people have been left with evil, violent leaders in Hamas.

They aren't left with that. They chose that.

 

[Nessie]

Are you trying to compare Gaza/Israel to the war in Ukraine?!

Are you trying to equate what is happening to Vietnam?!?!

Gaza is a mess that both the Palestinians and the Arab League largely made for themselves. Not to mention the fact that if Ukraine was down to launching a few rockets at Russia that caused a casualty or two a month in Russia then I'd say yeah its time to give it up.

The framing of the situation by some of the people on this forum is so beyond ignorant, its a long ways from reality.

Gaza is a mess because Israel crammed millions into a small, unproductive corner, controlling their power and water, so they could never develop.

ETA: Hamas needs to read the room. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia... even Lebanon are not coming rolling in to support them. They're just calling for cooler heads to prevail. They're just being used as peon cannon fodder for Iran and possibly Russian interests.

The Palestinian people have ended up with one of the world's worst leaderships.
For there to be a future for them, it is likely they need to get rid of Hamas, than Hamas being prepared to reform its ways. This is likely a Hamas recruitment operation, as they poke the bear, getting it to be brutal in its reaction.

 

[lobosrul5]

Are you trying to equate what is happening to Vietnam?!?!



Gaza is a mess because Israel crammed millions into a small, unproductive corner, controlling their power and water, so they could never develop.



The Palestinian people have ended up with one of the world's worst leaderships.
For there to be a future for them, it is likely they need to get rid of Hamas, than Hamas being prepared to reform its ways. This is likely a Hamas recruitment operation, as they poke the bear, getting it to be brutal in its reaction.

Israel didn't cram 2 million people into Gaza. My god do you have even a basic understanding of the events that took place between 1948 and now?

Also... I have not brought up Vietnam... wth? Although someone did earlier in this thread or the other one, I cannot remember. And I said its a bad comparison.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Gaza is a mess because Israel crammed millions into a small, unproductive corner, controlling their power and water, so they could never develop.

Because everyone wants to live in the same 20 square inches because "That's totally my sacred holy motherland upon which my ancestors have lived since God put the first soul into man" and not just spread out into the vast expanse of exactly equal desert scrubland that exists for light years in every direction like sane people operating under sane mentalities would just do without having to be asked.

Remember that episode of Star Trek where Worf's brother secretly beams a primitive culture onto the Holodeck and doesn't tell them and moves them to another planet? Can we do something like that?

 

[Ziggurat]

Gaza is a mess because Israel crammed millions into a small, unproductive corner, controlling their power and water, so they could never develop.

Israel only controls the power and water that they provide. They don't really control the power generated within Gaza. The problem for Gaza isn't Israeli control, it's that they never invested the money to increase their own power generation capacity. Israel didn't prevent that. Israel didn't make Hamas spend their funds on rockets and tunnels and guns.

The Palestinian people have ended up with one of the world's worst leaderships.

They chose that leadership.

For there to be a future for them, it is likely they need to get rid of Hamas, than Hamas being prepared to reform its ways. This is likely a Hamas recruitment operation, as they poke the bear, getting it to be brutal in its reaction.

I don't think you understand Hamas. The killings themselves serve as recruitment incentive.

 

[lobosrul5]

Because everyone wants to live in the same 20 square inches because "That's totally my sacred holy motherland upon which my ancestors have lived since God put the first soul into man" and not just spread out into the vast expanse of exactly equal desert scrubland that exists for light years in every direction like sane people operating under sane mentalities would just do without having to be asked.

Remember that episode of Star Trek where Worf's brother secretly beams a primitive culture onto the Holodeck and doesn't tell them and moves them to another planet? Can we do something like that?

Create 2 new Jerusalems. Transport randomly 2 out of 3 Christians, Jews, and Muslims to this new Jerusalem each getting their own new instance and the third getting the "real" Jerusalem. Only create 3, and don't tell anyone. Atheists, Sikhs and Janists can tour the real Jerusalem on holiday.

 

[Aridas]

Agreed, no rockets is the correct choice.

You actually had me at this point. Gazan rockets have almost certainly done more direct damage to Gaza and the Palestinians in Gaza than they have to Israel. That's before getting to the consequences of Israel's responses.

No rockets is the correct choice, because, even if one were to support military action and violence, they're quite counter productive.

That means Palestinians should just accept they are second class citizens, to be ruled over by Israel and never fight back. They should be meek and just accept appalling conditions in Gaza as their lot in life.

This doesn't even remotely follow. There would have long been a Palestine now if it weren't for the bad decisions and warmongering of the Arab leaders that have just kept putting the Palestinians into ever worse circumstances.

Violence is not always a viable way to success. It certainly hasn't been for them.

Theoretically, Hamas could organise themselves as an army, get uniforms etc, but the Israelis would then condemn that as an act of war. Israel has manoeuvred the Palestinians, literally into a corner, where anything they do, except do nothing, is easily condemned.

HAMAS HAS AN ARMY. HAMAS HAS UNIFORMS. NEITHER WAS EVER DECLARED AN ACT OF WAR.

Your outrage is based on fundamentally false premises. That Hamas' army normally doesn't use their uniforms during combat is all on them.

 

[crescent]

In West Bank Israeli settlers fired upon a Palestinian funeral procession, then fired upon the ambulance that came to get the wounded. One dead at the funeral plus four Palestinian paramedics.

Balanced against video of Palestinians in Gaza (which is now without water) digging up water lines and using the pipes to make rockets. Now they blame Israel for the lack of water.

Neither side wants peace.

 

[Nessie]

Wait... you think it's a problem that fighting a war might be called war?

What is wrong with you?

If you think killing people is justified, then what's the problem with calling it war? Wars can be justified. And if it's not justified, then why is condemning it bad?

You're completely incoherent.

You have made me appear incoherent, by misinterpreting what I am arguing. Strawman fallacy.

You really don't understand the nature of Hamas. They don't want a way out. They aren't interested in peace. Killing isn't just a means to accomplish other goal, killing IS the goal. They have always been quite open about that.

And there were always other options. This has always been a false dichotomy, one that you are using to excuse Hamas.

Hamas are like the extreme parts of the IRA, the evil men who only want violence, who use that violence for their own ends of power, status and often wealth. The difference is that the IRA had a political wing, Sinn Fein, who ended up dominating and ending the violence.

Sinn Fein were successful because there was a genuine option to negotiate with the UK government, who wanted peace and a resolution and who would accept that Ireland could become united, if that is what the people democratically demand.

Is that option available to Palestinians with the Israeli government? Is there a way that the Israeli government would accept the peaceful creation of a Palestinian country?

 

[Nessie]

... There would have long been a Palestine now if it weren't for the bad decisions and warmongering of the Arab leaders that have just kept putting the Palestinians into ever worse circumstances.

Violence is not always a viable way to success. It certainly hasn't been for them.

The threat of another Arab nation that hates Israel, is why there is no Palestine.
Israel has made sure of that. There is no, and never has been, the sign of it being possible to peacefully achieve a Palestine nation. It is also not possible to do so with Hamas lead violence. The Palestinian people are left in limbo.

HAMAS HAS AN ARMY. HAMAS HAS UNIFORMS. NEITHER WAS EVER DECLARED AN ACT OF WAR.

Your outrage is based on fundamentally false premises. That Hamas' army normally doesn't use their uniforms during combat is all on them.

Hamas also attacked military targets, but as an internationally prescribed terrorist organisation, putting on a uniform and only attacking military targets does not stop them being called terrorists by the Israelis.

 

[trustbutverify]

In West Bank Israeli settlers fired upon a Palestinian funeral procession, then fired upon the ambulance that came to get the wounded. One dead at the funeral plus four Palestinian paramedics.

Balanced against video of Palestinians in Gaza (which is now without water) digging up water lines and using the pipes to make rockets. Now they blame Israel for the lack of water.

Neither side wants peace.

That's correct. As I've typed earlier, there needs to be a radical change in leadership on both sides for any chance, any chance at all, of direct, realistic negotiations leading to a rational solution. Israel, in particular, needs a sober, highly intelligent and charismatic leader to inspire a new spirit in the Zionist movement.

 

[trustbutverify]

You actually had me at this point. Gazan rockets have almost certainly done more direct damage to Gaza and the Palestinians in Gaza than they have to Israel. That's before getting to the consequences of Israel's responses.

No rockets is the correct choice, because, even if one were to support military action and violence, they're quite counter productive.



This doesn't even remotely follow. There would have long been a Palestine now if it weren't for the bad decisions and warmongering of the Arab leaders that have just kept putting the Palestinians into ever worse circumstances.

Violence is not always a viable way to success. It certainly hasn't been for them.



HAMAS HAS AN ARMY. HAMAS HAS UNIFORMS. NEITHER WAS EVER DECLARED AN ACT OF WAR.

Your outrage is based on fundamentally false premises. That Hamas' army normally doesn't use their uniforms during combat is all on them.

I wonder why. Oh wait... I know why.