Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Planigale]

When Sinn Fein distanced itself from the IRA and became a political organisation that would condemn violence (and by its actions helping to reduce the level of violence in NI), it was able to enter negotiations with the UK government that was under international pressure, especially from the USA, to make the negotiations work.

Hamas have chosen the route of; violence will work, despite all the evidence it will not. Unless they are replaced by or become a political only organisation that condemns violence, they are doomed to fail and cause many deaths.

But the negotiation (GFA) was not between Sinn Fein and the UK and Irish governments, but the IRA a terrorist organisation and the governments. Sinn Fein was beholden to the IRA, they may have expressed non-violent intentions but the armalite was there if they stepped too far out of line. (A close friend was Martin McGuiness's PA so I have some info, including how IRA enforcers were present in negotiations with Sinn Fein.)

The governments were prepared to negotiate with terrorists whilst they were carrying out terrorist actions to end the violence. Peace may involve negotiation with those who want to kill you.

 

[trustbutverify]

H. None of that says anything about whatever Hamas actually intended for the raid. I kinda wonder if the raid was just so much more successful than Hamas expected, such that they lost control. Did they actually intend to hit the music festival? Or was it just a surprise target too good to pass up?

I think they were shocked by the absence of security forces, and were amazed how "successful" the operation was. However, I'd bet they scheduled the raid around the concert; it was an event where weapons were prohibited. Hamas has internet, they knew a large, distracted, bunched up crowd of unarmed people were available to be slaughtered with machine gun spray, and that's exactly what they did. (IMO) that festival was targeted, and that massacre was planned.

 

[Planigale]

I do have to wonder if Hamas leadership did not intend for the mass slaughter of civilians that occurred. Like, did they just want their squads to shootup IDF outposts, and maybe kidnap some civilians?? And THEN when Israel bombed them in retaliation show all the Palestinian civilian casualties that they used as human collateral.

Because not too many people on the fence or moderate to Israel are going to be swayed to their side by a bunch of teenagers murdered at a music festival, or, as is maybe now for real and confirmed, babies decapitated.

There are scandals about special forces, US, UK and Australian, killing prisoners, committing war crimes, if these Western governments with highly professional armed forces cannot control soldiers on the ground, it is entirely believable that Hamas cannot. The US will undoubtedly cover up war crimes committed by US troops, Australia and the UK seem more open to addressing the issue.

I think it is notable that no Hamas operatives have been captured, this is unbelievable, some should have been injured and captured. Either the IDF is executing injured combatants or they are being denied access to the ICRC, both potential war crimes. Either way the truth will out and it will not be of benefit to the IDF or Israel in the long term. Having a reputation for taking no prisoners does not make things easier.

 

[dudalb]

I think they were shocked by the absence of security forces, and were amazed how "successful" the operation was. However, I'd bet they scheduled the raid around the concert; it was an event where weapons were prohibited. Hamas has internet, they knew a large, distracted, bunched up crowd of unarmed people were available to be slaughtered with machine gun spray, and that's exactly what they did. (IMO) that festival was targeted, and that massacre was planned.

Form what I have heard, HAMAS was well aware that most of the troops patrolling the Gaza Wall had been redeployed to the West Bank since Bibi had a total contempt for them and saw the PA as the real problem.
One theory I have heard an reject is that the current confusion in the uS Congress was a trigger Higly Unlikely. I think they had the date set, and that the US Congress was in chaos was just a nice unplanned bonus for them.
Anyway the "Iron Wall" proved to be Maginot Line 2.0.

 

[Planigale]

Except in this case the Jews were there first... then the "Palestinians" were a collection of immigrants from across various Arab lands, mostly only coming after about 1830, not there for a millennium. Its also a total mis-framing of what happened that the stronger force came in and forced the weaker out... not that NO ONE was unfairly kicked out of their home in 1948.

You've also mis-framed my argument against the analogy. Giving the Gaza's somewhere better to go would not be a rehashing of the Trail of Tears.



Not necessarily. Most Palestinains are ethnically Arab, and Sunni-Muslim. Theres no reason they cannot fit in perfectly well in many Arab countries. This is not the same as the reason why Jews wanted to get out of Europe and into their own country... for some reason in the early/mid 20th century.

If you look at genetic studies this is not true. Most Palestinians were probably Jews resident in the Holy Lands who converted to Christianity (what is often forgotten is that many Palestinians are Christian and not Muslim), some then converted to Islam. Some remained Jews, (who were entitled to israeli citizenship), 'Palestinians' pre 1948 were a mix of Jews (including Samaritans who wee not recognised as Jewish by orthodox Jews), Christians and Muslims. It is false to view Palestinians as a homogenous group.

ETA Ashkenazi Jews are ethically European, would this justify them being expelled and the EU being made responsible for them?

I can just here the cry of every racist; 'Go back Home', in my case, 'Paki'.

 

[dudalb]

There are scandals about special forces, US, UK and Australian, killing prisoners, committing war crimes, if these Western governments with highly professional armed forces cannot control soldiers on the ground, it is entirely believable that Hamas cannot. The US will undoubtedly cover up war crimes committed by US troops, Australia and the UK seem more open to addressing the issue.

I think it is notable that no Hamas operatives have been captured, this is unbelievable, some should have been injured and captured. Either the IDF is executing injured combatants or they are being denied access to the ICRC, both potential war crimes. Either way the truth will out and it will not be of benefit to the IDF or Israel in the long term. Having a reputation for taking no prisoners does not make things easier.

Welcome to my " Death to the Zionist Entiry...but let's say it with dogwhistles list.

 

[dudalb]

Palestinian civilians aren't "collateral damage" to the IDF. That organisation murders civilians to often and in too great a number for it to be anything other than deliberate policy. The state of Israel has adopted wholesale the tactics Frank Kitson formulated for the British army in Kenya and the Six Counties, viz if there is opposition then punish the whole community collectively (and in the Six Counties the opposition was the non-violent NICRA when Kitson's vild criminality was implemented).

While what Hamas has done over the last few days is vile beyond the comprehension of anybody sane, I cannot forget that Israel has done the equivalent month after month, year after year since the1980's with no condemnation nor blowback from the international community.

B.S. There has been pleny of criticism of Israel from the Internatiional Community.
And you have to stop seeing everything through the lens of the Irish "Troubles".

 

[Planigale]

Welcome to my " Death to the Zionist Entiry...but let's say it with dogwhistles list.

What does this mean?

Hamas are definitely war criminals. Their leaders should be tried by the ICC. However, war itself is not a crime (although it should be). Resisting Israeli occupation is not a war crime. Killing civilians is.

Because your enemies commit war crimes does not allow you to commit war crimes. The Israeli government is clearly directing the IDF to commit war crimes. Command responsibility requires those directing armed forces to commit war crimes to be held responsible.

 

[Planigale]

Welcome to my " Death to the Zionist Entiry...but let's say it with dogwhistles list.

For background my spouse did national service with the IDF, so I have some personal sympathy with those who are serving.

 

[Shadowdweller]

For those interested in such things, here are some clips from a "Free Palestine" rally that took place in NYC a day or two after the attacks.

The juicier segments IMO can be found at 26:30 and 30:00 or so respectively. The rally was at least partly sponsored by the DSA - the Democratic Socialists of America. I'm not sure all the grisly details of the attack had really filtered through the American media yet at that point; but their takes on the Hamas attacks are really... something.

To fully appreciate the significance of the rally, one should probably be aware that NYC boasts what is almost certainly the largest Ashkenazi-Jewish population in the US. A community that has very strong ties to Israel.

 

[Nessie]

My comparisons to the Troubles are not a direct equivalence. My point stands that until the men of violence on both sides agree to talk and not fight, there will always be violence in Israel.

When the men of violence dominate, since they all think that violence is the solution, then there is no end to the violence.

Netanyahu and his government, and an authoritative leader or leaders of Hamas, need to all be together, talking and condemning any all violence, before there will be any form of peace.

Israeli targetting of all people living in Gaza, by cutting off their basic needs, just feeds more young men into Hamas and the violence continues.

 

[lionking]

My comparisons to the Troubles are not a direct equivalence. My point stands that until the men of violence on both sides agree to talk and not fight, there will always be violence in Israel.

When the men of violence dominate, since they all think that violence is the solution, then there is no end to the violence.

Netanyahu and his government, and an authoritative leader or leaders of Hamas, need to all be together, talking and condemning any all violence, before there will be any form of peace.

Israeli targetting of all people living in Gaza, by cutting off their basic needs, just feeds more young men into Hamas and the violence continues.

You talk about men, and this is one of the differences between Ireland and Gaza. The women of Ireland were instrumental in the end of the Troubles, leading, organising and standing up. Here is an article of some of them:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-bring-peace-to-northern-ireland-in-portraits

In the unlikely event of women of Gaza speaking up, you can be certain they would be silenced in one way or other. The treatment of women is a key difference between Gaza and Israel (and Ireland).

 

[Nessie]

You talk about men, and this is one of the differences between Ireland and Gaza. The women of Ireland were instrumental in the end of the Troubles, leading, organising and standing up. Here is an article of some of them:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-bring-peace-to-northern-ireland-in-portraits

In the unlikely event of women of Gaza speaking up, you can be certain they would be silenced in one way or other. The treatment of women is a key difference between Gaza and Israel (and Ireland).

I just watched some of a press conference by UK families who have relatives kidnapped by Hamas. The man claimed he did not understand why someone would go into his grandmothers house and take her. Really? Does he not know?
I would go as far as to say he is pretending to not know, as he tries to encourage sympathy for Israel, by ignoring Israeli actions, that have deprived many Palestinians of their homes and security.

That women are less likely, able or willing to speak out for peace, just means men like him will continue to dominate the debate and politics, and the violence will never stop. Indeed, it will just get worse.

 

[Ziggurat]

.
I think it is notable that no Hamas operatives have been captured

How do you know that? Because Israel isn't talking about it? Why would they? The primary benefit from prisoners is intelligence, and you undercut that value if you let the enemy know who you have captured.

 

[crescent]

How do you know that? Because Israel isn't talking about it? Why would they? The primary benefit from prisoners is intelligence, and you undercut that value if you let the enemy know who you have captured.

Well, things like this happen:

IDF publishes footage from the exchange of fire between Israeli troops of the 17th battalion and four Palestinian terrorists near the Zikim beach earlier today. The gunmen were tracked by the Maglan unit and the 52nd Armored Battalion.

Draw your own conclusions - but at the 33 second mark they appear to be in their knees, hands in the air. They don't survive.

That said - so far as I know Israel has not commented on whether or not it has captured any Hamas members alive during the past few days. Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

[Nessie]

Well, things like this happen:


Draw your own conclusions - but at the 33 second mark they appear to be in their knees, hands in the air. They don't survive.

That said - so far as I know Israel has not commented on whether or not it has captured any Hamas members alive during the past few days. Maybe yes, maybe no.

The video shows that they tried to surrender and were killed. Many Israelis wonder why they are hated and keep on being attacked.

Many of the responses to the video are about them being terrorist, not soldiers, so somehow it is OK to kill them as they surrender. The rule of law does not apply, apparently.

It is like the comments about Hamas using civilians as human shields, when they fire rockets from Gaza. There is no space in Gaza from which to fire rockets without it being near to civilians. Palestine is not an officially recognised country, to have a government and an army.

The cards are clear stacked in favour of Israel, over the Palestinians, to constantly make out that Israel is the victim and the Palestinians the terrorists. In fact, both are trying to fight for a homeland to call their own, which the Israelis have and the Palestinians do not.

 

[Ziggurat]

The video shows that they tried to surrender and were killed. Many Israelis wonder why they are hated and keep on being attacked.

Many of the responses to the video are about them being terrorist, not soldiers, so somehow it is OK to kill them as they surrender. The rule of law does not apply, apparently.

What law is that, exactly?

The Geneva conventions don't protect terrorists. They don't protect non-uniformed combatants. Yes, you can in fact summarily execute such combatants.

But I'm really not sure if that's even what's happening. The video is far too low quality to tell what really went on.

It is like the comments about Hamas using civilians as human shields, when they fire rockets from Gaza. There is no space in Gaza from which to fire rockets without it being near to civilians.

That is absolutely not true. There are actually open fields in Gaza. Go look on Google Maps if you don't believe me. Yes, Gaza is quite dense, but not every single square foot is occupied. Furthermore, they don't just fire near civilians. They fire from schools. You cannot seriously argue that firing rockets from schools is the only choice that Hamas has.

The cards are clear stacked in favour of Israel, over the Palestinians, to constantly make out that Israel is the victim and the Palestinians the terrorists. In fact, both are trying to fight for a homeland to call their own, which the Israelis have and the Palestinians do not.

One group is murdering babies and broadcasting that with joy. One group isn't. I know which side I'm choosing.

 

[trustbutverify]

I just watched some of a press conference by UK families who have relatives kidnapped by Hamas. The man claimed he did not understand why someone would go into his grandmothers house and take her. Really? Does he not know?
I would go as far as to say he is pretending to not know, as he tries to encourage sympathy for Israel, by ignoring Israeli actions, that have deprived many Palestinians of their homes and security.

That women are less likely, able or willing to speak out for peace, just means men like him will continue to dominate the debate and politics, and the violence will never stop. Indeed, it will just get worse.

How about skipping the elderly females and infants who present no threat whatsoever on your murder/kidnapping spree for liberation? Is that too much to ask?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How about skipping the elderly females and infants who present no threat whatsoever on your murder/kidnapping spree for liberation? Is that too much to ask?

Are elderly people and babies killed when the IDF indiscriminately bombs apartment blocks in Gaza? Are the elderly and families with young children spared of dispossession by Zionist settlers?

 

[JoeMorgue]

So basically terrorism is just a valid strategy now?

The reason terrorist blend in with civilian populations is SO they can't attacked with collateral damage. Even IF you think that collateral damage is 1:1 exactly the same thing morally as murder that just basically turns terrorism into not only valid but good and logical from a tactics perspective.

If Hamas or Isis or Al Qaeda or the goddamn KKK formed a country with borders and a capital it would be wiped out the face of the Earth by any minor regional power in a few hours. They only work as threats BECAUSE they mix in with a semi-sympathetic larger civilian population.

And lot people are saying not saying that they are in the right for acting that way.