Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[TurkeysGhost]

Given that the activist solution is "to remove gender markers from being displayed on IDs whenever possible" it is hard to see a good faith argument that the conference ought to have had the chance to lean on official policy to decide which participants are truly non-binary.

I don't know how you read that and not come away with the clear impression that the root issue is official IDs that don't match the gender of the person. Removing needless gender identification is one solution, but it's quite obvious that making it easier for gender nonconforming people to update their official documentation is another.

This activist doesn't seem to be advocating for one over the other, but rather a more nuanced combination.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ray Stevens Parodies Men Competing In Women’s Sports With New Song “Since Bubba Changed His Name To Charlene”
Aaron Ryan

Old man yells at cloud

 

[d4m10n]

I don't know how you read that and not come away with the clear impression that the root issue is official IDs that don't match the gender of the person.

Do you mean gender expression or gender identity here? It's hard to see why i.d. would ever need to match the latter, since it's completely subjective and internal.

Removing needless gender identification is one solution...

When is it needful rather than needless, in your view?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Thermal]

Just stopping in for my annual.peek, am several thousand posts behind, so excuse me if this has been taken care of already:

Y'all come up with the definition of "woman" yet that would have ended this thread in the first couple pages of Part 1?

 

[theprestige]

Just stopping in for my annual.peek, am several thousand posts behind, so excuse me if this has been taken care of already:

Y'all come up with the definition of "woman" yet that would have ended this thread in the first couple pages of Part 1?

Yes, but the TRAs don't like it and want to keep going. Same as it ever was.

 

[Thermal]

Yes, but the TRAs don't like it and want to keep going. Same as it ever was.

Thank you. Will check back in 2024 to see what exciting and unexpected argumentative twists and turns have come to pass.

 

[Ziggurat]

Even if the conference had been in California, it would not have been limited to Californians. There would need to be a federal solution if the organizers wanted to lean on identity docs.

Every state allows for gender change on ID cards, so they still could have used ID cards. Using that would have led to different standards for people from different states, but they still could have done it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Even if the conference had been in California, it would not have been limited to Californians. There would need to be a federal solution if the organizers wanted to lean on identity docs.

Certainly true. Allowing each state to make their own standards for what civil rights trans people are entitled to seems like a massive headache.

A recurring issue in American history

 

[theprestige]

Thank you. Will check back in 2024 to see what exciting and unexpected argumentative twists and turns have come to pass.

Hopefully when you return next year, it will be to see a further rollback of some of the most anti-science and anti-women policies of the trans rights movement.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Meanwhile, in America...

LibsofTikTok is the official spokeswoman of stochastic terrorism. Schools featured on her social media feed reliably face torrent of bomb and other violent threats:

Schools Report Bomb Threats Following Libs of Tiktok Anti-LGBTQ Posts
Almost a dozen schools or school districts contacted by VICE News reported a surge in bomb threats and harassment following the posts.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvj5dq/schools-report-bomb-threats-following-libs-of-tiktok-anti-lgbtq-posts

 

[Thermal]

Hopefully when you return next year, it will be to see a further rollback of some of the most anti-science and anti-women policies of the trans rights movement.

Heh. Good one.

 

[theprestige]

Heh. Good one.

There's been some small progress already this year. And some signs that the trend might continue.

 

[d4m10n]

Certainly true. Allowing each state to make their own standards for what civil rights trans people are entitled to seems like a massive headache.

Which advocacy group is pushing for the specific federal solution you'd prefer to see implemented?



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[Emily's Cat]

I think there'd be a lot more tolerance for casual blurring of the sex-segregated bathroom line, if TRAs were willing to agree to bright lines on sex segregation in sports and prisons and locker rooms and equitable representation.

Agreed. There might need to be a bit less casual approach in schools, but aside from that, this is one of the least of the concerns.

Which is of course, why the TRAs always come back to it as their rallying cry: "We just need to pee!".

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because you don't want it to be true because you don't want a compromise or a solution to be reached because you want to people to hate and you don't want that to go away.

 

[theprestige]

Certainly true. Allowing each state to make their own standards for what civil rights trans people are entitled to seems like a massive headache.

This is an argument against anyone recognizing any new rights ever. California recognizes a right not recognized by the federal government? Massive headache. Better back it out.

The EU recognizes a right not recognized elsewhere? Massive headache. Better back it out.

I suppose the other option is that the federal government, the EU, et al. must immediately and without deliberation recognize any right newly recognized by any of their member states, or any state anywhere really. Otherwise? Massive headache.

 

[Emily's Cat]

From the schools, it generally consists of adopting changed names/pronouns, the use of opposite sex facilities such as bathrooms and/or locker rooms, and possibly even counseling. In short, they assist with social transition. The schools obviously don't do the medical transition, but socially transitioning them can encourage them to medically transition as well.

There's also been some cases of the school counselor providing binders to young females without the parent's knowledge or consent. And some cases of the schools facilitating trips to a gender therapist without the parent's knowledge or consent.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You have yet to comment on the Canada solution other than to deflect. I'm seeing now you're not really interested in "solutions" so much as you are just JAQing off.

What do you think of the Canadian solution, even if only limited to the context of the utopian Canada that exists in your imagination? Do you find it acceptable, why or why not?

"Waaah, you didn't answer my question that I asked after you asked your question, so you're a meany!!!"

 

[Emily's Cat]

I guess you could call it a semantic quibble, but you could also call it excessive spin. It sounds more like the student was transitioning socially, and the school facilitated it. Saying the school "transitioned" the student implies that the decision was made by the school, not the student.

The example cited is a case when the student disagreed with the parent, and the court ruled they must defer to the parent. Okay, if that's how the law is. I reject the implication that the school is the prime mover of events here.

So that highlighted bit is the problem. The schools shouldn't be in the business of facilitating a child's personality development. The schools shouldn't be facilitating a child's social presentation as transgender, no more than the school should facilitate a child being gay, or a child being an emo or a goth or a metal head. The school should not be involved in facilitating that aspect of a child's development, it's well outside the scope of education.

Anybody watch "Raising Hope" when it was on? There's a bit of a flashback story that involves the main character Jimmy going through a goth phase in high school. Jimmy would dress in black with lots of safety pins, chains, and dramatic make-up, and they wanted to be called "Drakkar Noir". Jimmy's parents were perfectly aware of this.

Now, if the parents are okay with it, and the teachers *want* to play along and call Jimmy "Drakkar Noir", fine. It's silly, but okay. Teachers shouldn't be obligated to call them "Drakkar Noir", but there's also no reason to prohibit it - it's at the teacher's discretion.

What if the parents were in the dark? What if every day Jimmy left the house as Jimmy, in jeans and t-shirt, and when they got to school, they ducked into the bathroom and changed clothes and put on make-up? What if the school was aware that Jimmy was doing this behind their parent's back?

Should the school be obligated to inform the parents? Meh, maybe not. But I'd prefer it if they did. Any time a child is adopting a completely different persona outside of their parent's knowledge, there's at least some cause for concern. That sort of division is generally indicative of a problem, and sustaining distinct identities like that is rarely healthy in the long term.

On the other hand... should the school facilitate Jimmy's change of persona? Should the school provide clothing options for them, make-up, and a space to change without their parent's knowledge? On this, I say absolutely not.

I'm fine if schools don't intervene unless there's a clear concern about the child's well being. I'm not fine with the school facilitating a division between parent and child.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Have you considered that your media consumption habits have little to do with reality?

You mean other than the fact that the events are ones that happen in reality?

Pedophilia, sharing of child sex abuse imagery online, and grooming of minors for sexual purposes via the internet are all on the rise. Being aware of the techniques used, and taking reasonable safeguards to protect children from this isn't some crazy hysterical conspiracy rambling.

Why do you want to prevent reasonable safeguards?

You did the same thing when we were talking about the safety precautions that females take as a matter of habit, and you spent a LOT of energy demeaning and denigrating female posters as well as several male posters who supported the actions that their spouses and children took to prevent exposure to sexual assaults. You seemed quite determined to tell females that they should not take precautions against rare events, and should instead just leave themselves vulnerable. Why is that?

You're doing the same thing here, and you've done it before. When the topic of child safeguarding comes up, you mock and ridicule the precautions that parents and caring adults take to protect children from predators. You act like it's all made-up and imaginary, and really, parents just shouldn't bother with any of it. Parents should just leave their children vulnerable to predators.

Why do you take this approach? What's in it for you?