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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Jack by the hedge said:
After two appearances recently I've been waiting to see if "the ship's electrician/radiographer" would turn out to be some elaborate joke rather than just an odd malapropism.

At my school, the school radiographer would inspect all our welds for signs of explosives or friction. He could tell them apart in 1".
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Erratum: It should, of course, have read 'The activation of the emergency buoy was one of the tasks of the radio electricians in Estonia, of which there were two on board.'

Glad it brought a smile to a few grumpy faces.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Vixen, can radioactive waste melt metal?
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From wiki:

Caesium is mined mostly from pollucite. Caesium-137, a fission product, is extracted from waste produced by nuclear reactors. It has the largest atomic radius of all elements whose radii have been measured or calculated, at about 260 picometers.

<snip>

Caesium metal is highly reactive and pyrophoric. It ignites spontaneously in air, and reacts explosively with water even at low temperatures, more so than the other alkali metals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cesium_water.theora.ogv
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium


So it would be grossly irresponsible and dangerus to smuggle nuclear waste on a passenger ferry. But the stern-end ramp was found to be ajar. The JAIC made no attempt to explain that. Plus the fire alarms were going off.

Why shouldn't people ask why?
 
Vixen said:
The source is a simple distance calculator on google. (No, I no longer have the link to this auto-function.)

The precise time and the location points to forward planning. For example, you arrange to meet someone, you would say, 'Two o'clock under the clock at Victoria Station', you wouldn't say, 'Let's meet at 14:18 three-quarters of the way to the V&A', especially if there is a whole team of you.
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Why do you think drawing a direct line on a map is not a good way to determine the course a ship would actually sail?

Bearing in mind I am a qualified offshore navigator and can check your answer.

As there was a storm raging which would have slowed progress and the attackers wouldn't have known how far the ship would travel by midnight, how did they get time and location to coincide?
Bearing in mind neither time or location were not precisely midnight or halfway.
 
Axxman300 said:
What you're saying is the divers should have put their lives at risk to swim under a freshly sunken ship, even though the risk of the hull settling further was an extreme risk at the time.

My guess is you're the person who rows their boat between the cargo vessel and the pier/dock side.

Anytime you put divers into the water there is danger. Every step must be taken to stay safe at all times. In any other thread, this should be obvious.
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They had ROV's even then.
 
Vixen said:
The JAIC didn't tackle any of this. Could have been some kind of conflict. Witnesses claim to have seen arguing between official at the port about the trucks being loaded. Another witness claims Captain Andresson was seen in any angry confrontation with a group of six or seven men. Who knows? Someone was determined to load that cargo. Someone else was determined it shall not arrive in Stockholm. Andresson was likely not alive or incapacitated when the Mayday went out. Did he shoot himself when he knew drowning was imminent, as in the old-style nazi tradition or did someone top him. You would have thought the JAIC would identify exactly who was on the bridge as of the time of the accident but all we have are Rockwater reports of a man in red jacket with tattoos on his hand lying under a cabinet.

Or maybe you don't think any of this was relevant?
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Which 'old-style' nazi tradition is that?
Is there a tradition of 'old-style' nazis shooting themselves when drowning was a possibility?
 
Vixen said:
There hath been many a true word spoken in jest ~ Shakespeare
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Yet again your efforts to appear erudite just leave you with egg on your face. But hey, the edit window is still open.
 
Vixen said:
From wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium


So it would be grossly irresponsible and dangerus to smuggle nuclear waste on a passenger ferry. But the stern-end ramp was found to be ajar. The JAIC made no attempt to explain that. Plus the fire alarms were going off.

Why shouldn't people ask why?
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That isn't what I asked.

There's no evidence of them transporting caesium on the ferry.
 
Axxman300 said:
All times are approximate in reference to bow visor coming loose.



And?



Nope.



Hogwash. Utter hogwash. I can list dozens of large ships going to the bottom in foul weather quickly, with no debris field. And Estonia's passenger accommodations and features were internal (meaning the stuff is on the inside of the ship). And it was a dark and stormy night, meaning the crew lashed everything down before sailing.



It wasn't there at the time of the sinking.



Allegedly.



Weird, almost as if his ship was in trouble, and he was trying to save it.



Which has been patiently explained to you many times. The US Army and US Marines have issued citations and medals to soldiers and Marines who've rescued civilians a few time this year alone. Nothing strange here. And any smart person who has reviewed the footage of the rescue of the Estonia survivors it is painfully clear why such medals were awarded.



They're wrong.



Two "academics" paid by the company couldn't rule them out, but they also couldn't rule them in. Just as a recent study by JREF forum study cannot rule out eels or sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads as causing the sinking.



And what did old Ida say about abnormal pounding. And did she know the Estonia was not built for open-ocean transit? Does Ida understand the difference in engineering and design between ships that work near-shore, and river environments, and the design requirements for oceangoing vessels?

And what does Ida say now that we know the certificate of seaworthiness was fraudulent, and the Estonia should never have put to sea in the first place?

[*NOTE: This certificate is an actual conspiracy, obviously ignored because it relfects the usual eastern European/post-Soviet era corruption, and not sooper sexy spie intergue.]



Maybe they should have allowed scavengers to pick the wreck clean, and bring suffering to the families instead.
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For you to get a grasp of the issues, you really need to stop fixating on the idea that there was a massive storm - a tempest - with raging winds, lightning and thunder. No.

Esa Mäkelä, the captain of Silja Europa who was appointed on-scene commander for the subsequent rescue effort, described the weather as "normally bad", or like a typical autumn storm in the Baltic Sea.
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Wiki

Likewise, as for debris:

According to Captn Mäkelä who has done this trip hundreds of times says:

Silja Europa arrived at the scene of the accident fairly quickly, but Mäkelä slowed down the speed of her ship as she approached the scene of the accident, as she thought Estonia was hanging upside down on the surface.

- By all accounts, that should have been the case. It should have remained floating upside down, which would have been dangerous for us. I had over 2,000 passengers on board myself.

"The cause of the accident is not just the bow visor"

According to Esa Mäkelä, the exact cause of the accident has not been determined, because the Swedish government has not lifted the wreck despite its promises.

There are similar storms in the Baltic Sea every year, so that alone cannot be the explanation for the sinking. Even the detachment of the bow visor would not have been enough to sink Estonia so quickly.
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https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli...aanotti-estonian-viimeisen-hatakutsun/4355350

Stop believing the hype about killer storms.
 
Axxman300 said:
At a CIA Black Ops facility, somewhere in the Adirondacks, 1994 ...

CIA Planner (CP): Okay, we're stealing some Russian equipment because they are ahead of us with smokey engine technology. The plan is to load them onto trucks, and take them by ferry to Sweden.

Black Ops Operator(BOO): Uh, why not just drive the trucks to Poland? Or maybe load them onto a C-5 in Latvia?

CP: No, too easy. We load them onto a ferry, and then we sink the ferry. We have SEALs remove the engines from the wreck, and load them onto a submarine.

BOO: Wait, what?

CP: We can't implicate ourselves or the Swedes.

BOO: Why would the Swedes want outdated Soviet gear? Have you seen their weapons programs?

CP: I've already taken an old attack submarine out of mothballs.

BOO: You what?

CP: We're going to ram the ferry to sink it.

BOO: Okay, but both Ted and I can just, you know, drive those trucks to Poland. Like we've been doing for the past three years. Nobody has caught on yet, or cares.

CP: You're missing the bigger picture. We need to send a message to the Russians.

[BOO takes a second as he realizes his boss has lost his mind] I have a better idea. We train some hamsters to work with the local eel population to sink the ferry.

CP: I'm listening.

End Scene.
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Not quite.

KGB/GRU guy: Sweden can you hear me? You are to stop stealing our technology and rare heavy metals.

KGB Sidekick: But Ivan, our soldiers are flogging this stuff on the black market because we haven't paid their salaries for two months...

KGB/GRU: Quiet, tavarish! These Estonians are traitors to the great Motherland Russia <fx lapses into long hysterical rant>. SWEDEN, DO YOU COPY?

KSI/MUST guy: Russia, we know nothing. We have some CIA guys setting up shell companies all over the place, we can do nothing. We tried to stop them but Carl says they are friends of his after that time he went to bootcamp in the States.

KGB/GRU: YOU VILL STOP IT!!!
 
Andy_Ross said:
There wasn't a fraudulent certificate.
Estonia was sailing with exemptions that required it to stay inshore.
Also it was originally certified on a 'domestic' certification rather than the usual international certification. Sweden had done this with quite a few roro ferries at that time.

It's all in the report.
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The thing is, once MV Estonia reached Utö, she was 'inshore' as it were. The Ålands are geographically and politically part of Finland because 'open sea' doesn't start again until between the Ålands and Sweden (about 200km).

It certainly was not in 'open-ocean transit' as Axxman claims.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Vixen said:
You believe Lake Ontario is 'rough seas'?
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Yes.
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Great Lakes Storm of 1913WP

The Great Lakes Storm of 1913 (historically referred to as the "Big Blow", the "Freshwater Fury", and the "White Hurricane") was a blizzard with hurricane-force winds that devastated the Great Lakes Basin in the Midwestern United States and Southwestern Ontario, Canada, from November 7 to 10, 1913. The storm was most powerful on November 9, battering and overturning ships on four of the five Great Lakes, particularly Lake Huron.

The storm was the deadliest and most destructive natural disaster to hit the lakes in recorded history. More than 250 people were killed. Shipping was hard hit; 19 ships were destroyed, and 19 others were stranded. About $1 million of cargo weighing about 68,300 tons—including coal, iron ore, and grain—was lost. The storm impacted many cities, including Duluth, Minnesota; Chicago, Illinois; and Cleveland, Ohio, which received 22 in (56 cm) of snow combined with winds up to 79 mph (127 km/h) and was paralyzed for days. The extratropical cyclone originated when two major storm fronts that were fueled by the lakes' relatively warm waters—a seasonal process called a "November gale"—converged. It produced wind gusts of 90 mph (140 km/h), waves estimated at over 35 feet (11 m) high, and whiteout snowsqualls. Winds exceeding hurricane force occurred over four of the Great Lakes for extended periods creating very large waves. The large size of the Great Lakes provides wind fetches (the length of water over which a given wind has blown without obstruction) of hundreds of miles, allowing huge waves to form. Rogue waves are known to occur on the Great Lakes, including waves reinforced by reflections from the vertical shores of some of the Great Lakes. [notes omitted]
​
 
whoanellie said:
I’ve read that 9 of the Estonia’s lifeboats were recovered as flotsam. As discussed here extensively, so were the 2 EPIRBS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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AFAIAA only one or two lifeboats were successfully launched - the list was too great. Yes, there was indeed a huge dump of lifesaving equipment, life vests, etc., washed up at Dirham, a little fishing village on the shores of Estonia. Enough to fill a warehouse. But strangely, no bodies. The current was obviously very selective. Again, not dealt with in the JAIC report.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Just to pile on, here is an article from The Baltimore Sun:

Harbor tragedy's heroes honored

By Athima Chansanchai
Baltimore Sun
Published: Apr 18, 2004 at 12:00 am

. . . A rainbow suddenly arced from the Baltimore Naval Reserve Center to an aged, 72-foot troop deployment ship from which naval reservists held the feet of Petty Officer 2nd Class Jerry Neblett, who repeatedly stretched into the water to pull out those caught beneath the capsized Lady D.

Shivering later from hypothermia, the 24-year-old machinist said he couldn't get that rainbow out of his head. It stayed with him when he later met with the relatives of the victims of the March 6 accident. . . .

The sun was shining -- with temperatures finally spring-like -- as Neblett and 25 fellow reservists received medals and citations for their roles in rescuing the men, women and children who were thrown into the harbor by a sudden squall that overturned the 36-foot pontoon boat. Five passengers died.

At the awards ceremony, high-ranking Navy officials -- including Assistant Secretary Dionel M. Aviles -- joined members of Congress in honoring the men and women on weekend exercises who quickly became a cohesive team and rushed to the overturned craft. Speakers credited their heroism and quick thinking with keeping the number of casualties from climbing. . . .

U.S. Sen. Barbara A. Mikulski delivered a spirited tribute, in which she commended the crew for "forming a human chain, lashed to each other, brother to brother," to pull survivors out of the water.

Among the links in that chain were Lt. Cmdr. Art Eisenstein of the U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps, Cmdr. Petersen Decker, Petty Officer 2nd Class Sean Tate, Petty Officer 2nd Class Jeffrey King and Neblett.

They received the highest awards -- the Navy & Marine Corps Medal -- for their multiple dives into the water. The medal is given for heroism in noncombat settings. . . .​
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Er, Svensson received the highest combat medal.
 
Vixen said:
Er, Svensson received the highest combat medal.
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Please, not that **** again.
We went in to detail previously.

There have been a number of decorations with the same name over time, awarded for a number of different things including, but not limited to combat.
What he did certainly justified it.
 
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