Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[theprestige]

It's only a "motte-and-bailey shenanigan" if it's untrue or irrelevant. In which case instead of rephrasing it into a straw man, just say that it's untrue or incorrectly reasoned. This avoids poisoning the well when it's the facts that should be examined.

We've examined the facts. That's how we know for a fact that the water in the well is toxic. It's not poisoning the well to crack wise about the poison that's actually in the well.

If your examination of the facts leads you to a different conclusion, I'd like to know what it is, and how you reasoned from the former to the latter.

If you're still examining, and haven't reached a conclusion yet, I wish you well on your journey. Watch out for the poison.

 

[gnome]

We've examined the facts. That's how we know for a fact that the water in the well is toxic. It's not poisoning the well to crack wise about the poison that's actually in the well.

Maybe I'm sticking on this point too much, but it seems like merging two arguments, which usually hinders consensus.

The first argument is whether the suicide risk argument is valid. The second argument is TRA's intentions in using that claim. Why smush them together, when two separate statements has much more clarity?

 

[theprestige]

No comment on the suicidality risk, but I think a far more likely scenario is "I can make my child's life hell, they'll still transition eventually, and they'll resent me for the rest of my life, or I can support them now and maintain a good relationship with them".

Whatever the scenario, these parents are presenting a life-or-death narrative about it. An anti-science narrative based on ignorance and fear-mongering.

Parents can support their child's exploration of gender expression, without preemptively locking them into mutilation and chemical castration before they even hit puberty.

Parents need to be told that there are options, for them and their children. They do not need to be told that they must pursue prepubescent medical transition or their child might commit suicide. Especially if, as you suggest, the suicide part is just melodramatic hyperbole.

 

[theprestige]

Maybe I'm sticking on this point too much, but it seems like merging two arguments, which usually hinders consensus.

The first argument is whether the suicide risk argument is valid. The second argument is TRA's intentions in using that claim. Why smush them together, when two separate statements has much more clarity?

TRAs are welcome to vouch for the validity of their claim any time.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Whatever the scenario, these parents are presenting a life-or-death narrative about it. An anti-science narrative based on ignorance and fear-mongering.

Parents can support their child's exploration of gender expression, without preemptively locking them into mutilation and chemical castration before they even hit puberty.

Parents need to be told that there are options, for them and their children. They do not need to be told that they must pursue prepubescent medical transition or their child might commit suicide. Especially if, as you suggest, the suicide part is just melodramatic hyperbole.

I suggest no such thing.

An extremely abusive and transphobic home life sounds like a perfect recipe for suicide risk.

 

[Trausti]

I suggest no such thing.

An extremely abusive and transphobic home life sounds like a perfect recipe for suicide risk.

Ditto where the parent trans their child to get attention. That child’s life is ruined.

 

[theprestige]

I suggest no such thing.

An extremely abusive and transphobic home life sounds like a perfect recipe for suicide risk.

Another all-or-nothing boogeyman from the TRA side. We can't afford to tell parents there are options besides pediatric transition, because any parent interested in that must be extremely abusive and transphobic?

gnome, while I might speculate about motive when asked, I hope you understand that I am not so much concerned with the TRA motivations for putting poison in the well, as I am with the fact that they are doing so.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Another all-or-nothing boogeyman from the TRA side. We can't afford to tell parents there are options besides pediatric transition, because any parent interested in that must be extremely abusive and transphobic?

Inventing a whole different sentence I didn't type to get upset about, truly impressive.

 

[Ziggurat]

No comment on the suicidality risk, but I think a far more likely scenario is "I can make my child's life hell, they'll still transition eventually, and they'll resent me for the rest of my life, or I can support them now and maintain a good relationship with them".

This is a false dichotomy. Not letting them transition isn't automatically going to make their life a living hell, and supporting their transition won't automatically make your relationship with them wonderful. I've seen enough testimony from kids who are grateful that their parents pushed back to know that it doesn't always work that way.

Need only to look at the experience of gay people to see similar patterns at work.

This is a false comparison. There really are no equivalents of "detransitioners" for sexuality. That really does seem immutable. But gender identity isn't. We know people do actually detransition.

Whether or not they're the type of parent to get a perfunctory visit once a year at Christmas time (if that) or a parent that has a good, close relationship with their adult child is entirely up to them.

I've seen enough parent/child estrangement even without gender issues to know that this is nonsense. No, it's not entirely up to the parent. It never is.

Suicide is only the most extreme risk, estrangement seems like a far more likely outcome.

You are correct on that point, but you're wrong that it always points in the direction you assume.

 

[Ziggurat]

Inventing a whole different sentence I didn't type to get upset about, truly impressive.

You didn't type it, but it's the logical inference from what you did.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You didn't type it, but it's the logical inference from what you did.

Are we just pretending now that some parents don't respond extremely negatively, even abusively, when confronted by a child questioning their gender? That's the kind of extreme transphobia I am referring to, not a parent who is reasonably cautious about medical transition.

 

[d4m10n]

No comment on the suicidality risk, but I think a far more likely scenario is "I can make my child's life hell, they'll still transition eventually, and they'll resent me for the rest of my life, or I can support them now and maintain a good relationship with them".

Your attempt at mind reading conservative or religious parents demonstrates a surprising lack of real world experience with them. The sort of folks who would indeed make their child's life hellish for expressing a desire to transition to the opposite sex are rather rarely the sort of parents who believe the child will inevitably transition because they do not believe gender identity is real, inherent, & immutable rather than (say) an untestable idea made up by unethical medical practitioners like John Money.

Need only to look at the experience of gay people to see similar patterns at work.

The recurring analogy between sexual orientation and gender identity is tenuous at best. We've got countless examples of men having sex with men from antiquity, but very few examples of males living as women outside of third gender cultures. This suggests we're talking about socially constructed identity rather than an inherent and immutable personal trait.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are we just pretending now that some parents don't respond extremely negatively, even abusively, when confronted by a child questioning their gender?

No. Nobody is claiming that. That's entirely your own invention.

Are we just pretending now that pushing back against an attempt at transition isn't automatically abusive, that it might sometimes be in the child's best interest?

That's the kind of extreme transphobia I am referring to, not a parent who is reasonably cautious about medical transition.

The problem isn't that you're referring to such cases. It's that those are the only cases you seem to think are worth considering.

For my part, I think the number of parents who are cautious outnumbers those who are abusive. But the push to keep parents in the dark about their own children treats the former like they're the latter. In fact, there seems to be a deliberate attempt to paint the former as automatically being the latter.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Your attempt at mind reading conservative or religious parents demonstrates a surprising lack of real world experience with them. The sort of folks who would indeed make their child's life hellish for expressing a desire to transition to the opposite sex are rather rarely the sort of parents who believe the child will inevitably transition because they do not believe gender identity is real, inherent, & immutable rather than (say) an untestable idea made up by unethical medical practitioners like John Money.

You misunderstand me. I fully understand that these people are totally surprised by the consequences of their abusive practices towards their children. They are often surprised when these children resume living how they wish once they reach adulthood and are no longer under the thumb of their parents, and are often further surprised when their children are estranged from them as a result.

My narrative was more about pointing out the realistic choices they face whether they know it or not. I'm sure plenty hold unreasonable beliefs that somehow being extremely emotionally abusive to their children will somehow have positive results.

My point is that parents have very limited ability to actually stop their children from transitioning, because childhood eventually ends, but rather the choice they are actually making is whether or not their children continue to have a good relationship.

 

[d4m10n]

You misunderstand me. I fully understand that these people are totally surprised by the consequences of their abusive practices towards their children.

Bit weird that they'd be surprised in the future, having said "they'll still transition eventually, and they'll resent me for the rest of my life" upon considering whether to "support them now."

Did you intend your awkward caricature of the conservative mind to depict someone looking forward or looking back?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Bit weird that they'd be surprised in the future, having said "they'll still transition eventually, and they'll resent me for the rest of my life" upon considering whether to "support them now."

Did you intend your awkward caricature of the conservative mind to depict someone looking forward or looking back?

It's the choice they likely faces them regardless what they think they are accomplishing by digging in their heels. It's how they ought to view the choices, not necessarily how they are viewing the choices.

 

[d4m10n]

It's how they ought to view the choices, not necessarily how they are viewing the choices.

They ought to agree with you on facts but not values?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

They ought to agree with you on facts but not values?

I don't understand this question.

 

[d4m10n]

I don't understand this question.

You've created a strawman version of a conservative who understands that gender identity is real and immutable (hence "they'll still transition eventually") but doesn't share your moral intuitions regarding whether such an identity ought to be affirmed by family and society.

This whole discussion would be so much less confusing if we took people at their word instead of putting implausible words in their mouths.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You've created a strawman version of a conservative who understands that gender identity is real and immutable (hence "they'll still transition eventually") but do not share your moral intuitions regarding whether such an identity ought to be affirmed by family and society.

This whole discussion would be so much less confusing if we took people at their word instead of putting implausible words in their mouths.

No, you misunderstand me entirely.

My whole point is that they don't know this is the choice they are making, even though in reality it is very often the choice they are making.

The transphobic parents that respond by throwing a tantrum and acting like maniacs likely think they're acting in their child's best interests or will achieve some other good outcome, but usually all they accomplish is making their children deeply resent them and, at best, delaying their transition (medical or social) until they are free from their parent's influence in adulthood.

Much like how homophobic parents sometimes were successful in making their gay children stay in the closet by bombarding them with anti-gay abuse.