Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[lobosrul5]

See the article in the New York Times of November 4, 1991, by William J. Broad re 'Pentagon's shopping list'.

You've never provided one iota of evidence that anyone in the former USSR gave a flying **** that ex-Soviet material was being bought.

 

[Vixen]

You've never provided one iota of evidence that anyone in the former USSR gave a flying **** that ex-Soviet material was being bought.

It's minuted in the Rikstag.

 

[lobosrul5]

It's minuted in the Rikstag.

Care to elaborate?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

If it's minuted you should be able to point to the specific session where it was brought up.

 

[Vixen]

Care to elaborate?

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

Transport of defense equipment
The TV program Kalla fakta stated on November 30, 2004 that defense equipment was smuggled on M / S Estonia on two occasions during September 1994 and that this was done on behalf of the Swedish defense. No responsible authority wanted to comment on the whole thing, but on December 3, the Government instructed the President of the Court of Appeal Johan Hirschfeldt to clarify the facts.

Hirschfeldt submitted his report to the Government on 17 February 2005. Hirschfeldt states that defense equipment was transported to Estonia on two occasions in September 1994. He also writes that there was nothing to indicate that defense equipment was transported on other occasions.

IOW he had no choice but to confirm what Customs Officer Lennart Henriksson who witnessed smuggling* by 'higher forces than the government' to wave them through customs. He was on holiday leave 28.9.1994 which is why Hirschfeldt doesn't confirm it for that date.

Hirschfeldt in an interview 2021 says he now regrets having destroyed all of his materials in this case. He provided interesting information about his "investigation" into the transport of military equipment in Estonia. Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports.

*The deliberate bypassing of declaring goods brought onto the country and evading inspection by Customs & Excise re same.

 

[Axxman300]

A ferry battling into heavy weather and you suggest the crew might open a ramp to get fresh air into the car deck. This is your example of parody, I presume, as you clearly can't be serious.

It's possible the submarine left it's screen door open. Don't laugh, keeps the fish out.

 

[JayUtah]

Whoa! Given that it is strongly believed in some quarters...

My, how curiously worded. Thank you for playing.

No wall of Conspir-O-Twaddle fixes your problem. It doesn't transmute osmium into cesium and it doesn't fix the problem that you can't tell parody sources from real ones.

 

[lobosrul5]

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel



IOW he had no choice but to confirm what Customs Officer Lennart Henriksson who witnessed smuggling* by 'higher forces than the government' to wave them through customs. He was on holiday leave 28.9.1994 which is why Hirschfeldt doesn't confirm it for that date.

Hirschfeldt in an interview 2021 says he now regrets having destroyed all of his materials in this case. He provided interesting information about his "investigation" into the transport of military equipment in Estonia. Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports.

*The deliberate bypassing of declaring goods brought onto the country and evading inspection by Customs & Excise re same.

Sooooo nothing at all about what I asked. That someone or some group opposed the selling of ex Soviet material and equipment to the west. That they were such true believer communists that they were willing to commit mass murder to stop it.

There's no evidence for it. That's the central pillar to your whole CT isn't it?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Which CT? She's ventured several.

 

[Axxman300]

Jutta Rabe did some investigative work and suggests the following, bearing in mind the fall of the USSR in 1991 and the decommissioning of the Soviet base at Paldiski, Estonia. Her suggestions are:

Right off the bat, you're citing an idiot, conspiracy monger as your source. She's been proven wrong twice at this point.

[*]Space technology; based on an article in the New York Times of November 4, 1991, by William J. Broad .

And why would we steal it from the Russians when we were and still are working with them on the ISS?

[*]The Pentagon had announced its intention in 1991 to spend $ 12 million to buy an advanced Soviet nuclear reactor to power space.

And? We paid for it. We didn't steal it. How , in any rational world, is this relevent?

[*]The VP of the Pentagon SDIO traveled to a Soviet space laboratory near Moscow where a team of experts tested a small space engine that used magnetic fields to move the spacecraft instead of fuel.

I'll defer this one to Jay Utah...after he stops laughing...

device needed in space programs fit in the palm of your hand and was available for less than $ 1 million"

If it's so small, why not take it on an airplane, or FedEx it?

The Soviet Union had plutonium-238 and heat-resistant alloys not known in the West, e.g. one made of palladium and osmium was able to withstand temperatures of 3,600 degrees Celsius.

And? The great thing about 1990s USA was we had cash, and the Russians needed it. So why not buy these things out in the open with all the other things we were buying at the time.

The Air Force was interested in the RD-170, which was the best rocket fuel in the world.

I'll defer this one for Jay too, but I think he's going to call BS on this one as well.

Rabe quotes Colonel Aleksander Einseln of the United States Army, installed as Commander of the Estonian Army, reportedly told Rabe, '“It was an attack on us,” [which he denies saying]

He denies it because she's a liar.

Rabe claims that Johannes Johanson, the director of Estonia, one of the owners of the ferry, said, "Estonia was submerged in the attack."

You mean the guy who needs the cause of the sinking to be anything other than the actual cause of the sinking suggested something else? Shocking.

Given that widespread smuggling of decommissioned nuclear waste materials was going on in Estonia, and Rockwater was commissioned to do a recce of the vessel, which was a subsidiary BRES, itself a subsidiary of Halliburton which was owned by US VP Dick Chaney in 1995. Rockwater spent a lot of time going through the cabin of Avo Piht and the Voronins (this is meticulously recorded in the Rockwater Report). Voronin owned a company in Tallinn called the “Space Association,” while his brother Valeri owned a similar company in Moscow that traded in weapons and space technology.

You've posted this BS several times. The second investigation proves this is all wrong, or irrelevant.

This is all factual information and the political scene in Estonia and the USSR in that era. It is telling the JAIC mention none of this.

Yes, it suggests the people who put together the JAIC are not delusional nutjobs who chase ghost stories.

It is hardly 'Vixen concocting a story', for Harri Ruotsalainen, who is taken very seriously by the Estonian government working party into the current Arikas expedition, claims that he was in Estonia as an intern, sent by the Swedish navy to help with the investigation. He claims he saw a sonar printout in which there appeared to be near perfect square shapes on the seabed some distance away from the vessel. This information, too, has vanished from public domain. Ruotsalainen does believe the military trucks were dumped out of the vessel via the stern or the bow, and that the real reason for the 'gravel and macadam' dump was to cover these dumped trucks. Ruotsalainen believes that the information is classified and would be for the standard 75 years.

And yet they've surveyed the car deck. They've videoed the car deck. What you've typed is not true.

 

[lobosrul5]

Which CT? She's ventured several.

Good point. None of which have any substance with regard to motive, or anything else for that matter.

 

[JayUtah]

[*]The VP of the Pentagon SDIO traveled to a Soviet space laboratory near Moscow where a team of experts tested a small space engine that used magnetic fields to move the spacecraft instead of fuel.

I'll defer this one to Jay Utah...after he stops laughing...

I hadn't planned to respond in detail since it's just wall of crap she copied from a known-unreliable source, and she won't address the response anyway.

Magnetic torquing is no mystery, but it can't move a spacecraft. At best you use it for fine pointing constraints in LEO spacecraft. The Soviets have never been ahead of us on that.

[*]The Air Force was interested in the RD-170, which was the best rocket fuel in the world.

I'll defer this one for Jay too, but I think he's going to call BS on this one as well.

The RD-170 is a rocket engine, not rocket fuel.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Perhaps the Russians infested the Estonia with caterpillars which ate away the bows.

The Siberian Hamsters would have eaten them.

Mods, it's time to turn this into a "Matters of Interest" thread.The OP is convincing no-one.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh my god she claimed RD-170 was rocket fuel. This is ridiculous.

 

[phiwum]

Problem is, the JAIC never investigated any of this.

That doesn't justify your traffics inconsistency.

Either there was sabotage so there was no accidental collision or there was an accident of some sort and so all your claims of military precision and sabotage are bunk.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Henrik Evertsson's documentary, 'The Find that Changes Everything'. It was on youtube for quite a long time until they were forced to take it down as Discovery + has the rights. You might be able to watch the episodes on a free trial...?

Do you have a quote or not?

You linked a source you had earlier claimed quoted him seeing the trucks, but it did no such thing. So, no sale without a quote and a transcript; you have no credibility when it comes to characterizing sources.

 

[phiwum]

That doesn't justify your traffics inconsistency.

Either there was sabotage so there was no accidental collision or there was an accident of some sort and so all your claims of military precision and sabotage are bunk.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Sorry, not sure what word I meant when it came out "traffics". Repeated perhaps?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Axxman300]

I hadn't planned to respond in detail since it's just wall of crap she copied from a known-unreliable source, and she won't address the response anyway.

Magnetic torquing is no mystery, but it can't move a spacecraft. At best you use it for fine pointing constraints in LEO spacecraft. The Soviets have never been ahead of us on that.

The RD-170 is a rocket engine, not rocket fuel.

Thanks, I figured you could just puncture these definitively better than I can.

 

[JayUtah]

Thanks, I figured you could just puncture these definitively better than I can.

Yeah, it's pretty hilarious. The mag torque story might be true; it's hard to tell since there are few details and what details there are are wrong. But if a big-wig from SDI was watching the Soviets test mag torquers, it's not a secret or something we're slobbering over. If that's the scenario then it's just a dog-an-pony show.

Earth's magnetic field is too weak for EM torquing to be effective for spacecraft chassis of the sizes and masses we were considering for SDI operations. It's like steering your car by sticking your hand out of the left or right window to create differential drag. The good news is that—unlike reaction wheels—mag torquers have far fewer moving parts and therefore run less risk of crapping out after 10 years in orbit. The bad news is that they're too weak to get excited about. Reaction wheels are far superior, and if you do your free-body dynamics correctly, you can arrange them to tolerate substantial dropout over time.

As for Russian engines, they ran the gamut from the excellent RD-170 to the piece-of-crap NK-33. In the mid-1990s, we were working very closely with the Russians to figure out how to interoperate all our space systems. The notion that we'd be skulking about trying to get all their metallurgical secrets is ludicrous. That's why Vixen's author has to grope so far back to when the Cold War was still a thing.

 

[Here_to_learn]

I'll start by linking back to one of the previous times you repeated your lies: http://www.internationalskeptics.co...p=13736950&highlight=Hirschfeldt#post13736950

It's minuted in the Rikstag.

Two things wrong with this:
1. Why do you insist on calling the Swedish Parliament the "Rikstag"? In Swedish it's the Riksdag. But you can just as well use the English term.
2. The Report was to the Government, not to the Riksdag. You quoted that yourself in the next post.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

IOW he had no choice but to confirm what Customs Officer Lennart Henriksson who witnessed smuggling* by 'higher forces than the government' to wave them through customs. He was on holiday leave 28.9.1994 which is why Hirschfeldt doesn't confirm it for that date.

Nope, Hirschfeldt uses multiple sources, not just one. You cannot use that report to confirm your conspiracy theory.

Hirschfeldt in an interview 2021 says he now regrets having destroyed all of his materials in this case.

Yes. For the reason that a lot of conspiracy theorists uses that as an excuse. Not because it contains anything not reported that would support the Conspiracy theorists.

He provided interesting information about his "investigation" into the transport of military equipment in Estonia. Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports.

And wrong again. KSI was included in the investigation and the report. The limitation was that he only investigated Swedish government agencies. Not potential foreign.