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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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JayUtah said:
Thereby eliminating the only reason to use a submarine.
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No, they had to use a submarine to avoid detection. Nobody is going to see a submarine travelling above the surface because nobody would look for one there.
 
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Mojo said:
No, they had to use a submarine to avoid detection. Nobody is going to see a submarine travelling above the surface because nobody would look for one there.
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I certainly wouldn't look for a submarine above the surface. Which is where it would have to be in order to poke the hole we see in the side of the ship.
 
Vixen said:
Especially as 'the rocky outcrop' is likely to be the gravel and macadam that was tossed onto the stricken vessel in order to bury it in concrete. If the 'rocky outcrop' came after the sinking then it cannot be the cause of it. In any case, if the ship missed it, it cannot be the cause of it either.
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wtf? (this separate from other wtfs relating to this whole idea - it's a very special wtf?)
 
Andy_Ross said:
M: Uh... Nitwit or Dragonfly?

B: Dragonfly! There isn't a horse called...

B: You're the nitwit.

M: What is "wit-nit"?

B: It doesn't matt...

B:could spend the rest of my life having this conversation!
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Yes we could sadly :=]

I'm reminded of a scene when Basil argues incessantly with the obstinate confused Deaf Lady. Kinda resonates with this thread.....

"Is this a piece of your brain?"




Compus
 
Mojo said:
Perhaps the Russians infested the Estonia with caterpillars which ate away the bows.
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Caterpillars that had been contaminated with caesium and osmium to give them superpowers? That could have worked.
 
phiwum said:
Right, but do you agree that if (as you claim) the EPIRBs were purposely "switched off" so that the ferry would sink before help arrived, then it CANNOT be the case that any collision which caused the hole and hence the sinking could have been accidental.

Thus, we definitely can lay to rest any talk of a Swedish escort sub unless it was really an assassin sub.

You can choose one or the other. Either it was a military precision event with saboteurs ensuring success or it was an accident. You can't have both.

Note as well that if it was saboteurs, then you have to stop claiming that Bildt knew about the accident due to the submarine escort. Without the presumption that the hole was caused by a submarine escort, you have literally no reason at all, not a shred of evidence no matter how weak, that there was such an escort.

Thus, we should be happy. We've eliminated one train of argument and can focus on what remains. There is no need to discuss a submarine escort again.
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Problem is, the JAIC never investigated any of this.
 
JayUtah said:
I love Fawlty Towers, which is why I responded knowingly.

And you're absolutely right about differences between cesium and osmium. They couldn't be any more different, which is why it's ludicrous for someone to mention one when they meant the other.

Osmium is a very hard metal that we use in alloys for lots of different things. As with many rare elements, the highest concentrations of it are found in Russia. During the Cold War, the West generally obtained them from the former Soviet Union through shell companies and other means of disguising the original buyer. It was never smuggled per se.

137Cs, is a product of uranium fission and therefore comprises a large proportion of the waste products of commercial nuclear reactors. It has an energetic decay process. Cesium ignites spontaneously in air. The parody site quoted by Vixen concocted a story by which a truck carrying cesium set the car deck on fire and the crew tried to open the bow ramp to push it out. Vixen bought it hook-line-and-sinker and then tried to bluff her way around it.
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Whoa! Given that it is strongly believed in some quarters (Hedrenius, Ovberg, Ruotsalainen) that there WERE military trucks on board, then the next question has to be, and what would these military trucks be holding, or, even, what was in the two miltary deliverys from Estonia in September 1994, which the Rikstag confirmed in 2005 via Hirschfeld? Obviously, they contained something. Hirschfeld was told that KSI /MUST (intelligence and military intelligence) were excluded from his investigation (OK, it pertains to national security). After reporting to the Rikstag, Hirschfeld destroyed all his material appertaining to the matter. But there were military delivereries carried on the MV Estonia which the Customs were ordered to 'wave through' uninspected. As it is the law that things have to go through customs, this was from a higher order than the government. The government is democratically elected. However, the intelligence service, whilst operating with the consent of the people, are not answerable to hem. What goes on in the military stays in the military. In other words, the JAIC was restricted to investigate civilian matters only. Any military trucks on board are in effect classified, if waved through, as it were by military intellience.

So, given there WERE military deliveries (on a civilian passenger ferry), it is quite reasonable to consider what this materiel could be that it has to remain Top Secret so that even customs do not know what it is. One such vehicle came through via a car rental.

Jutta Rabe did some investigative work and suggests the following, bearing in mind the fall of the USSR in 1991 and the decommissioning of the Soviet base at Paldiski, Estonia. Her suggestions are:

  • Space technology; based on an article in the New York Times of November 4, 1991, by William J. Broad .
  • The Pentagon had announced its intention in 1991 to spend $ 12 million to buy an advanced Soviet nuclear reactor to power space.
  • The VP of the Pentagon SDIO traveled to a Soviet space laboratory near Moscow where a team of experts tested a small space engine that used magnetic fields to move the spacecraft instead of fuel.
  • "device needed in space programs fit in the palm of your hand and was available for less than $ 1 million"
  • The Soviet Union had plutonium-238 and heat-resistant alloys not known in the West, e.g. one made of palladium and osmium was able to withstand temperatures of 3,600 degrees Celsius.
  • The Air Force was interested in the RD-170, which was the best rocket fuel in the world.
  • Rabe quotes Colonel Aleksander Einseln of the United States Army, installed as Commander of the Estonian Army, reportedly told Rabe, '“It was an attack on us,” [which he denies saying]
  • Rabe claims that Johannes Johanson, the director of Estonia, one of the owners of the ferry, said, "Estonia was submerged in the attack."

source: In Die Estonia , Jutta Rabe.

Given that widespread smuggling of decommissioned nuclear waste materials was going on in Estonia, and Rockwater was commissioned to do a recce of the vessel, which was a subsidiary BRES, itself a subsidiary of Halliburton which was owned by US VP Dick Chaney in 1995. Rockwater spent a lot of time going through the cabin of Avo Piht and the Voronins (this is meticulously recorded in the Rockwater Report). Voronin owned a company in Tallinn called the “Space Association,” while his brother Valeri owned a similar company in Moscow that traded in weapons and space technology.

This is all factual information and the political scene in Estonia and the USSR in that era. It is telling the JAIC mention none of this.

It is hardly 'Vixen concocting a story', for Harri Ruotsalainen, who is taken very seriously by the Estonian government working party into the current Arikas expedition, claims that he was in Estonia as an intern, sent by the Swedish navy to help with the investigation. He claims he saw a sonar printout in which there appeared to be near perfect square shapes on the seabed some distance away from the vessel. This information, too, has vanished from public domain. Ruotsalainen does believe the military trucks were dumped out of the vessel via the stern or the bow, and that the real reason for the 'gravel and macadam' dump was to cover these dumped trucks. Ruotsalainen believes that the information is classified and would be for the standard 75 years.

There is also no logical reason to claim that 'any illicit cargo can only be of one type'.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The average of the claims you prefer to believe may be two but that doesn't help make your conspiracy theorising into a coherent narrative.

How does the presence of two trucks cause an escorting Swedish submarine, which couldn't have kept pace with the Estonia anyway, to leap out of the sea at midnight and hole it above the water line?

By the way, has Russia's ongoing humiliation by the abject failure of its plan to steamroller Ukraine in 3 days put any sort of dent in your imagining the MacGuffin in this story is hyper-advanced and super-secret Soviet military hardware beyond the CIA's imagining? What sort of advanced Soviet tech do you like to imagine was aboard the Estonia but from which Russia now does not seem to gain any advantage?
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See the article in the New York Times of November 4, 1991, by William J. Broad re 'Pentagon's shopping list'.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
Speaking of which: have you had any luck yet finding an actual quote of Övberg saying that he saw a military truck? It wasn't in the statement you linked.
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Henrik Evertsson's documentary, 'The Find that Changes Everything'. It was on youtube for quite a long time until they were forced to take it down as Discovery + has the rights. You might be able to watch the episodes on a free trial...?
 
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