• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
RESOLUTION A.695(17) adopted on 6 November 1991
PERFORMANCE STANDARDS FOR FLOAT-FREE SATELLITE EMERGENCY
POSITION-INDICATING RADIO BEACONS (EPIRBs)
OPERATING ON 406 MHz
Click to expand...

Let me spell it out, since you clearly were not able to work it out for yourself.

Adopting a resolution (which in turn is only a recommendation, peppered with 'shoulds' rather than 'musts') is not the same as putting a requirement in place.

Now, try again, and show where it was a requirement that the MS Estonia be equipped with automatically activated EPIRBs.
 
zooterkin said:
Let me spell it out, since you clearly were not able to work it out for yourself.

Adopting a resolution (which in turn is only a recommendation, peppered with 'shoulds' rather than 'musts') is not the same as putting a requirement in place.

Now, try again, and show where it was a requirement that the MS Estonia be equipped with automatically activated EPIRBs.
Click to expand...

Read the resolution. If a relevant ship doesn't have a free-floating automatic EPIRB it had until Aug 1994 to go out and purchase one, preferably two. It is hardly an onerous expense.

A resolution that is passed comes into force seven days after the last signatory's signature. This makes it a binding contract, that is, legally enforceable to all SOLAS members.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Yes, the resolution, which was to make a recommendation, was adopted. What you wrote seems to imply that the committee then made the recommendation a requirement, which would have called for an additional vote. Or do you believe that recommendations just automatically become requirements?
Click to expand...

The gdmss conference resolution is the same as an AGM resolution or one in Congress. Once passed by members and signed off, it comes into effect.

Chapter III - Life-saving appliances and arrangements
The Chapter includes requirements for life-saving appliances and arrangements, including requirements for life boats, rescue boats and life jackets according to type of ship. The International Life-Saving Appliance (LSA) Code gives specific technical requirements for LSAs and is mandatory under Regulation 34, which states that all life-saving appliances and arrangements shall comply with the applicable requirements of the LSA Code. https://www.imo.org/en/About/Conven...Saving Appliance,requirements of the LSA Code.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
The gdmss conference resolution is the same as an AGM resolution or one in Congress. Once passed by members and signed off, it comes into effect.
Click to expand...

And what if the effect is merely to recommend? What is the legal difference between a recommendation and a requirement?
 
SpitfireIX said:
First, you claimed the resolution "clearly states" that automatic activation is required, when it "clearly states" no such thing. You simply infer that an automatic activation requirement is implied. Second, your reference is to a recommendation (which is why it says "Recommendation" at the top :rolleyes:), and the part of the resolution in which it is referenced starts with the word "Recommends." Governments and regulatory bodies routinely decline to adopt safety recommendations if they are felt to be unduly burdensome or expensive to the regulated industry. I believe several other people have explained this to you already.
Click to expand...

Automatic activation was only made mandatory after the Estonia sinking.
 
Vixen said:
Read the resolution. If a relevant ship doesn't have a free-floating automatic EPIRB it had until Aug 1994 to go out and purchase one, preferably two. It is hardly an onerous expense.

A resolution that is passed comes into force seven days after the last signatory's signature. This makes it a binding contract, that is, legally enforceable to all SOLAS members.
Click to expand...


Apparently you didn't read it. The date "Aug 1994" does not appear in the resolution, nor any other date associated with such a requirement.
 
SpitfireIX said:
As I have pointed out, and Vixen has either ignored or twisted, most of the engine room gang on the Empress of Ireland survived, while most of the passengers died.
Click to expand...

It used to be common practice for safety boots used in the machinery spaces to have the laces removed so they could be kicked off quickly if you had to go over the side in a hurry.
 
Vixen said:
And the Chief Engineer with hand radio communication to the Engine Room guys did not? When he is right next to the life boats.
Click to expand...

**** happens when a ship sinks. If it's in the dark in a storm it's chaos.
Plus the chief would want to be the last man away. He would want to check all his men were out of the machinery spaces.

I could tell you the story of how my dad won his bravery medal. He was awarded the Queen's Commendation for bravery. He went to Buckingham Palace and everything.
That was for returning to an air conditioning plant room aboard a ship when he realised two of his men were unaccounted for after an explosion and ammonia gas leak.
I think I'll save the details for a better occasion.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Apparently you didn't read it. The date "Aug 1994" does not appear in the resolution, nor any other date associated with such a requirement.
Click to expand...

What does this say?

CHAPTER III Reg 6 Section 2.3

NOTING that the Conference of Contracting Governments to the
International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974 (SOLAS),
on the global maritime distress and safety system (GMDSS Conference, 1988)
adopted regulation IV/7.1.6 of the 1988 SOLAS amendments, applicable not
later than 1 August 1993, requiring the carriage of a float-free satellite
EPIRB on every ship as part of the global maritime distress and safety system,
https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresourc...MOResolutions/AssemblyDocuments/A.696(17).pdf
Click to expand...


You do understand how passing law works, or a Bill (UK) or a resolution that is adopted into the Articles and Memorandum of a company? It is voted on by members, shareholders, Members of Parliament or Congress, and if passed, it comes into effect.
 
Andy_Ross said:
**** happens when a ship sinks. If it's in the dark in a storm it's chaos.
Plus the chief would want to be the last man away. He would want to check all his men were out of the machinery spaces.

I could tell you the story of how my dad won his bravery medal. He was awarded the Queen's Commendation for bravery. He went to Buckingham Palace and everything.
That was for returning to an air conditioning plant room aboard a ship when he realised two of his men were unaccounted for after an explosion and ammonia gas leak.
I think I'll save the details for a better occasion.
Click to expand...

Whilst your father was an honourable man it doesn't follow that the Chief Engineer on the Estonia, who was in handheld radio contact with the Bridge and the guys in the engine room had the same values. Treu and Linde do not mention anything about Lembik wanting to stay behind to make sure everyone was safe. In the world of a passenger ferry, the crew are supposed to assist the passengers by helping inflate life raft and handing out lift jackets, not jumping on the first life boat out of there. Of course, it is understandable they did this but that is not the protocol expected of them.
 
JayUtah said:
"Float-free," not "automatically activated." You still can't grasp the quite simple difference between the two.
Click to expand...

She grasps it perfectly well. Wriggly things gonna wriggle.

eta: deleted this part
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
What does this say?




You do understand how passing law works, or a Bill (UK) or a resolution that is adopted into the Articles and Memorandum of a company? It is voted on by members, shareholders, Members of Parliament or Congress, and if passed, it comes into effect.
Click to expand...

Float free, no mention of automatic activation
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom