Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[MarkCorrigan]

One more chance. Let me know what it is you are asking. Remember, no heckling or nastiness.

Please report any posts where you feel I've been nasty and quote them. You know that's against the rules here don't you?


My point is that I've produced two posts recently that have highlighted where you have, to be as charitable as possible, not correctly remembered previous discussions. I'd like you to acknowledge that please.

 

[Myriad]

I love that romantic picture but unfortunately, I can't help suspecting the crew were far away on their boat before the accident, with Piht arriving later having just come off duty. Sorry, I honestly can't see fit healthy 40-somethings not being first off the ship from their vantage point. Sorry if that sounds cynical but the facts that I can see all point to sabotage.

It does appear the command officers sabotaged the Estonia by allowing it to be in disrepair and to depart with poor trim, then sailing it into waters and conditions it was never designed to navigate, without so much as slowing down or changing course to reduce the wave impacts, while being the opposite of vigilant for signs of structural failure. Whether they left the Estonia before it sank, or went down with it, hardly matters to the many other crew and passengers who lost their lives due to those officers' acts of depraved indifference.

 

[Axxman300]

Re the heat issue. This is what Professor Ida Westermann had to say. She specializes in metallurgy; in particular, deformation.

https://www.friatider.se/1200-graders-varme-bakom-estonia-skador

No doubt, all the naysayers will come out and claim they know better than an expert and that she is wrong.

And yet they raised the bow ramp along with other key pieces of the locking mechanism, and inspected the bow ramp controls. No signs or evidence of explosives were found.

You are literally painting yourself in a corner by continuing to spout information that has been proven to be false. The Estonia sank under conditions it was never designed to withstand, period. All the political intrigue, all of the nutjob plots, and theories have fallen apart under the light of truth. You've learned nothing, and continue to embrace proven lies. You are not looking for the truth, and you never have been looking for the truth.

 

[Axxman300]

It does appear the command officers sabotaged the Estonia by allowing it to be in disrepair and to depart with poor trim, then sailing it into waters and conditions it was never designed to navigate, without so much as slowing down or changing course to reduce the wave impacts, while being the opposite of vigilant for signs of structural failure. Whether they left the Estonia before it sank, or went down with it, hardly matters to the many other crew and passengers who lost their lives due to those officers' acts of depraved indifference.

She needs to live in a fantasy world. That is the entire point of this case to her.

She needs espionage and international intrigue to be behind the sinking. Callous disregard for human life in the name of shipping commerce isn't as sexy.

 

[quadraginta]

[snip]

Maybe in the early days they had to pitch it to 406Mhz...? I don't know. Remember how cordless phones evolved into mobile phones and then smart phones? It was probably something like that. These days there is gps and auto-connection.

[snip]

These words ... they bear a striking resemblance to sentences, strung together as they are in an almost convincing imitation of sensibility.

 

[JayUtah]

Maybe in the early days they had to pitch it to 406Mhz...? I don't know.

I do.

Under absolutely no circumstances will an emergency transmitter designed to operate on a standardized frequency (e.g., 406.025, 406.028 MHz) and intended to be certified for use aboard licensed watercraft or aircraft allow any field adjustment of the frequency. Certification back then as now required frequency stability to within 2 ppm and the ability to maintain this for 5 years of field service without any adjustment. Fail this and you can't sell your device as an EPIRB/ELT. The only way to achieve this certification is to make it effectively impossible for anyone to fiddle with the device in the field in any way that results in a change of frequency. Field testing is permitted (and the U.S. Coast Guard offers this service for maritime units; the FAA for airplane units), but if the test fails then the device must be returned to the manufacturer for lab/factory service.

Virittää cannot mean a field frequency adjustment in this case.

As for the EPIRB's on Estonia, it is a matter of fact they were automatic free-float HRU triggered that was supposed to activate when submerged in water and then floated to the top to emit signals to the satellite.

Nope.

 

[JayUtah]

No doubt, all the naysayers will come out and claim they know better than an expert and that she is wrong.

No, we just know better than you. Remind the forum what I said about these findings (and your subsequent conclusions) the last time you brought them up. Surely you remember.

 

[JayUtah]

https://www.friatider.se/1200-graders-varme-bakom-estonia-skador

I'm curious why you chose this particular media outlet as your choice of filter for Westermann's presentation. Are they a reputable source? What did you do to determine that the claims you copied from them are an accurate representation of Westermann's findings?

 

[Blue Mountain]

verb
virittää
tune, tune up, set, pitch, prime, cock

"Prime" may be a better translation. I don't know squat about Finnish, but in English, as a verb the word means to "make ready." In Finnish it might mean they tested the device to ensure its On/Off switch was working.

Maybe in the early days they had to pitch it to 406Mhz...? I don't know. Remember how cordless phones evolved into mobile phones and then smart phones? It was probably something like that. These days there is GPS and auto-connection.

For cordless phones, I had a model one time that would let me switch frequencies at the press of a button. However (I've come into this conversation rather late) I suspect that was not the case with this device, and reading the service manual will confirm or refute my suspicion.

As for the EPIRB's on Estonia, it is a matter of fact they were automatic free-float HRU triggered that was supposed to activate when submerged in water and then floated to the top to emit signals to the satellite.

From everyone else's comments on this topic, it appears only the case itself was HRU triggered, but that does not necessarily mean the device inside was auto-activated. It would still be an "HRU triggered case" if they had put a sealed empty bottle inside. Sure, the bottle would likely make the surface, but it would be just as useless as a manually activated EPIRB that wasn't turned on. Which certainly appears to be the case with the Estonia.

 

[Andy_Ross]

verb
virittää
tune, tune up, set, pitch, prime, cock

Maybe in the early days they had to pitch it to 406Mhz...? I don't know. Remember how cordless phones evolved into mobile phones and then smart phones? It was probably something like that. These days there is gps and auto-connection.

As for the EPIRB's on Estonia, it is a matter of fact they were automatic free-float HRU triggered that was supposed to activate when submerged in water and then floated to the top to emit signals to the satellite.

Now, that's new so I will comment.

EPIRBs have a fixed frequency transmitter, there's nothing to tune, there never has been apart from at the factory.

There's no way for anyone to tune a beacon outside the factory workshop. There never has been.

 

[Andy_Ross]

"Prime" may be a better translation. I don't know squat about Finnish, but in English, as a verb the word means to "make ready." In Finnish it might mean they tested the device to ensure its On/Off switch was working.
.

Exactly that. To test battery condition on older models you turned them on. There's a 30 second delay after activation before they start to transmit so you can see the leds light up and then turn it off again.

More expensive modern units have a separate battery test button.

 

[JayUtah]

For cordless phones, I had a model one time that would let me switch frequencies at the press of a button. However (I've come into this conversation rather late) I suspect that was not the case with this device, and reading the service manual will confirm or refute my suspicion.

Or, in my case, looking at the 1987 FCC certification requirements that were in force until 2005, and having 30 years' experience in designing life- and mission-critical equipment that included RF links.

But yes to the cordless phone point. Since cordless, landline-backhauled telephones were range-limited, their use of their assigned radio frequency band is far less restricted. That's more of a regulatory thing than a safety thing. Phones in that era typically operated in the 2-ish GHz frequency range and offered a number of available channels between the handset and the base unit. As long as the signal didn't meaningfully propagate more than 50 or so meters, you were allowed to do pretty much anything within a fairly broad frequency spectrum. That included switching between predetermined frequencies so that neighbors living closer than 50 meters don't introduce crosstalk with their cordless phones. It also included ridiculously wide band-pass filters that accommodated the inevitable frequency drifts in low-cost consumer electronics. The tolerance on a cordless telephone could probably be as wide as 500 ppm without adverse effect.

Obviously that's vastly different from a lifesaving device, frequencies limited first by convention and then by technical requirements, and ranges of many kilometers. EPRIBs and ELTs that meet the FCC requirements must transmit only in a very narrow frequency range (either one of two, actually—each just slightly higher than 406.000 MHz) and must be tamper-proof. This is to maintain their life-saving reliability and preserve the integrity of the global reactive system (i.e., ground stations and satellites).

To be sure, there is a frequency-adjustment control, but it's internal and therefore accessible only by the manufacturer. No circuit comes off the assembly line perfectly tuned to 2 parts per million. The frequency is tuned at the factory using the manufacturer's certified test equipment, then the unit is sealed up with the frequency adjustment inaccessible by anyone in the field.

 

[Vixen]

Well, apart from the fact that there's no evidence for them still being alive.

Or they were put on a witness protection program.

 

[Vixen]

It does appear the command officers sabotaged the Estonia by allowing it to be in disrepair and to depart with poor trim, then sailing it into waters and conditions it was never designed to navigate, without so much as slowing down or changing course to reduce the wave impacts, while being the opposite of vigilant for signs of structural failure. Whether they left the Estonia before it sank, or went down with it, hardly matters to the many other crew and passengers who lost their lives due to those officers' acts of depraved indifference.

Given the engineers and watchmen from the lower (dangerous) decks all managed to escape and share a life raft together, complete with survival suits, passport and wallet, then it is a good bet the senior naval crew housed on deck 6 together with the 76-year-old ex-captain and his elderly wife and the medically unhealthy and overweight Voronin family with their two children, also managed to escape the ship. Their names appeared on the initial survivors list and as faxed to Estonian government officials. It's a lovely idea the thought of the captain going down with the ship, captain's cap in hand held across his chest, as the waves lap up around him but it is not a legal maritime requirement and there are numerous examples of captains abandoning ship and getting prosecuted.

Piht, who was in the cabin next to the Voronins, and may even have shared it, was last seen in Helsinki.

Given that of the survivors something like 40% of them were crew, or 47% if we include the 'missing nine', I think it does matter the crew's whereabouts before, during and after the sinking. It is key to understanding what happened.

 

[Vixen]

And yet they raised the bow ramp along with other key pieces of the locking mechanism, and inspected the bow ramp controls. No signs or evidence of explosives were found.

You are literally painting yourself in a corner by continuing to spout information that has been proven to be false. The Estonia sank under conditions it was never designed to withstand, period. All the political intrigue, all of the nutjob plots, and theories have fallen apart under the light of truth. You've learned nothing, and continue to embrace proven lies. You are not looking for the truth, and you never have been looking for the truth.

That is incorrect. Professor Ida Westermann, Head of Metallurgy at a Norwegian University found indisputable evidence that the deformation she observed in her testing of a section of the bow visor could not have been caused by the 'pressure of pounding waves' or 'the striking of the bow visor against the car ramp', as claimed by the JAIC in its conclusions, and they were only guessing, anyway.

Likewise British Naval explosives expert, Robin Braidwood did recognise a British hexacomposite explosive device, which had not gone off, when he saw it on a video.

Call them liars all you want but at least they have provided considered documentary evidence. Your claim, "No signs or evidence of explosives were found" is unsubstantiated.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Or they were put on a witness protection program.

Oh, yeah, sure. And from whom did your 'witnesses' reqire 'protection'?

When it's confirmed again that the sinking was just a stupid accident, these protected witnesses of your fantasy alternative reality will be wondering why they've been hiding away, cut off from their families and friends, for nearly 30 years. Don't you think so?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... it is a good bet the senior naval crew housed on deck 6

Weasel words.

"Housed on deck 6" means that's where their cabins were. It does not mean that's where they were. It does not mean they were in their cabins. It does not mean they had no duties in an emergency other than to abandon the ship.

 

[Andy_Ross]

They knew it was doomed, engineers tend to realise a ship is doomed when the water stops the machinery and is filling the machinery spaces.
As soon as the power is gone all you can do is abandon ship.

They were experienced seafarers, of course they would have had immersion suits and a grab bag ready.
A seaman with proper training would have had a suit on early. Old salts take their own suits with them, you can buy better quality than the ones issued by the ship.

I have one on the boat. It's a good one with high quality insulation, a wicking liner, full spray hood with a visor and built in strobe light. It's kept hanging in the drying cupboard ready for use if it ever blows up and we get caught out
I wouldn't be waiting till I thought the boat was sinking to put it on.

 

[Vixen]

She needs to live in a fantasy world. That is the entire point of this case to her.

She needs espionage and international intrigue to be behind the sinking. Callous disregard for human life in the name of shipping commerce isn't as sexy.

Nothing to do with fantasy. Hard-headed realism. Nobody around these parts believes the JAIC report. OSC Commander of Silja, Esa Makelä doesn't belive it was an accident. In fact, when the JAIC report came out, nobody believed it, so the Swedish government had to set up a Ministry of Psychological Defence to persuade them to believe. The culture around here is anti-disinformation. Children are taught in schools how to spot disinformation, misinformation and propaganda. That is why Finnish and Swedish newspapers/journalists have the world's highest journalistic integrity. I am somewhat amused, but not surprised, that Brits and Americans have trouble discerning ******** given they are so used to 'news' slanted and presented in a way that reflects the newspaper owner's politics that they come to accept these distorted views as their own and as the norm. Look at the outrage in my pointing out a simple fact about the Estonia EPIRB's. People want to censor facts because they cannot tell fact from spin.

 

[JayUtah]

That is incorrect. Professor Ida Westermann, Head of Metallurgy at a Norwegian University found indisutable evidence that the deformation she observed in her testing of a section of the bow visor could not have been caused by the 'pressure of pounding waves' or 'the striking of the bow visor against the car ramp.'

How sure of that are you? Strange that you can't seem to recall the answer we gave the last time you brought this up. Did you check your source like I asked? Did you verify that your source has accurately reproduced Prof. Westermann's findings? You have a poor research habit of quoting news sources instead of primary sources. This makes you the victim of their often-wrong interpretations.

Likewise British Naval explosives expert, Robin Braidwood did recognise a British hexacomposite explosive device, which had not gone off, when he saw it on a video.

Asked and answered. Braidwood saw a bundle he just assumed was an explosives satchel.

Call them liars all you want...

You're the one telling lies.