Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[JayUtah]

Not having the automatic activation is very sub optimal, but I think you'll find that automatic ones also have manual activation because that limited case use is actually better than waiting until the ship sinks.

The ship sinking is only one reason you want to activate an EPIRB. This is why they’re originally designed as manual activation only, and then later someone thought immersion activation would be a good improvement.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There is NO POINT having a manual EPIRB twinned with an HRU. This is because once the HRU activates the EPIRB, you are already four feet under water and nobody is going to be swimming to reach it. Especially not on a blustery night in the dark. The manual ones would be something you keep nearby or on a lifeboat or raft.

Think about it.

You made that up.

 

[Vixen]

Not having the automatic activation is very sub optimal, but I think you'll find that automatic ones also have manual activation because that limited case use is actually better than waiting until the ship sinks.

Yes, of course they do.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A manual version needs to be activated by pressing a button. It doesn't need an HRU to auto-release it and activate the satellite signal.

The manufacturers made one type of enclosed holder, it had the hydrostatic release mechanism.
It was used for all the buoys.

 

[Vixen]

You made that up.

According to this chart, type-II EPIRB (manually-activated) do not come with an HRU.

https://www.acrartex.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/ACR-Boaters-Guide-to-EPIRBs-Booklet_WEB.pdf PDF

 

[Andy_Ross]

Riddle me this: I am sure a manual EPIRB would fit in the cage but how are you going to be able to activate it once the ship has capsized?

Answer the question.

This is a 15,000 tonne passenger ferry not a rowing boat.

You release it and activate it before the ship sinks.
It wasn't a good thing and after the Estonia SOLAS regulations were updated to make an immersion activated beacon mandatory.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I've thought about it. If a ship is in distress and still on the surface, an activated distress beacon will help locate the ship. If the ship is no longer in the surface, having the distress beacon detach from the ship and float will enable rescuers to locate the area where survivors from the ship are likely to be. OK, this is not ideal because it relies upon someone being able to activate the beacon, which is presumably the reason for the later change in the regulations.

Question for posters other than Vixen: for the automatically activated beacons, is it still possible to activate them manually before the ship sinks?

Yes, there is a manual activation Button.
The correct way to use them is to activate them manually and throw them in to the sea as far from the sinking ship as possible so it doesn't get tangled or take one on to a liferaft and activate it.
Relying on the hydrostatic release can result in a buoy not deploying or getting caught and tangled on the sinking ship.

It's a last resort in case it's impossible to activate manually.

 

[Andy_Ross]

IIRC from the last turn around this particular mulberry bush, the point of having ma/ar was that the beacons can be activated in their housings if the ship is in critical trouble but not yet sunk keeping the beacons on it (rather than drifting seperately in the water) until the last moment when it does sink at which point they are released.

No,not really, you take them out, turn them on and throw them away from the ship.
Even the immersion ones.
You don't rely on the auto release and auto activation as the primary way of setting them off.

Auto release holders got used with manual buoys because the enclosed holders all had the hydrostatic release.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I am going to answer anyway. Of course you can activate any EPIRB manually. If it is encased in a cage with an HRU, you simply open the cage, remove the EPIRB and it begins to emit a signal immediately. (Although if someone has put in a manual EPIRB, you may have to press a button.)

It does not start to signal until you activate the switch. They do not activate immediately on release from a holder. That would mean you could never remove them without activating them. You are making things up again.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The ship sinking is only one reason you want to activate an EPIRB. This is why they’re originally designed as manual activation only, and then later someone thought immersion activation would be a good improvement.

I didn't want to make assumptions about something I know little to nothing about, I've heard that can make one look foolish! But would it be fair to say that best practice would be that the beacons are activated before the ship sinks rather than relying on the automatic activation?

 

[Andy_Ross]

If the EPIRB is automatically activated on release of the HRU it is not a manually activated EPIRB. When inspecting the auto EPIRB in it's case, it has to be lifted up to see if the lights come on. It then has to be immediately switched off before the signal gets to the COPAS satellites and place back in its set position.

In the case of Estonia, the Rockwater Surveyors discovered that both EPIRB cages were empty and one HRU was recovered.

Now, if someone knew how to open the EPIRB cage to grab hold of the manual EPPIRB then they would have also known that if there is no small flashing standby light then it is switched off. Anyone with the authority to take out the EPIRB would know to (a) switch it on and (b) chuck it in the water.

So, the EPIRB's were ejected by the HRU's. They were found switched off and untuned off the coast of Estonia.

Their batteries were not flat but fully charge. Logs show they had been recently inspected by the ship's electricians. This inspection involves ensuring the networks are connected and tuned. The Estonia EPIRBS were (a) switched off and (b) not tuned, despite all indications of good care of the product (full battery) and with an HRU.

This leads to the point that given there was a paucity of communications between 01:00 and 01:54 and the EPIRB's being switched off despite being successfully ejected, if not activated for some reason, then the question has to be asked, who turned them off, or removed them from the satisfactory operating condition they were in when inspected the week before.

This all seems to add up to the billet-doux sent out by a party with a message, together with the sinking at Swedish midnight and at the halfway point in the journey, together with ensuring Stockholm Coastguard did not get the Mayday until almost an hour later.

Everything in your quote here is wrong. It's all stuff you made up.
You are either deluded or deliberately telling us lies.

Some of us actually own a a beacon and have it fitted to their yacht
They know how it works and what the procedure is for deploying

Don't try and ******** us.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Vixen you now seem to be retreading the path of trying to claim they were automatic immersion-activated types with a manual off switch which could prevent activation. Can you show us which model had those features?

Not a single one of them.

They have one button to turn them on and some have a second battery test button.
Those without the test button have a 30 second delay before transmission after the switch is turned on. That lets them be activated to check the battery and then turned off again.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

No,not really, you take them out, turn them on and throw them away from the ship.
Even the immersion ones.
You don't rely on the auto release and auto activation as the primary way of setting them off.

Auto release holders got used with manual buoys because the enclosed holders all had the hydrostatic release.

Thank you. Putting the 'E' in "ISF'!

 

[Andy_Ross]

Not having the automatic activation is very sub optimal, but I think you'll find that automatic ones also have manual activation because that limited case use is actually better than waiting until the ship sinks.

Using the manual activation is the recommended procedure. It's more reliable. Relying on automatic release then activation adds extra failure points, both with the equipment and the risk of the buoy becoming tangled or trapped as the ship sinks.

 

[Andy_Ross]

According to this chart, type-II EPIRB (manually-activated) do not come with an HRU.

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53175634569_5c1e101476_c.jpg[/qimg]



https://www.acrartex.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/ACR-Boaters-Guide-to-EPIRBs-Booklet_WEB.pdf PDF

It says manually deployed, not activated. Try reading for comprehension.

That is not for equipment from the 90s and is only for one manufacturer

My EPIRB is auto in an auto enclosure but I could have bought it with a manual enclosure.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I didn't want to make assumptions about something I know little to nothing about, I've heard that can make one look foolish! But would it be fair to say that best practice would be that the beacons are activated before the ship sinks rather than relying on the automatic activation?

Yes, it adds extra failure points
Turn on and throw in to the sea
If the situation allows take one onto your liferaft and then activate.

If the vessel has several, only activate one and keep the others until the battery runs out on the first one.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Using the manual activation is the recommended procedure. It's more reliable. Relying on automatic release then activation adds extra failure points, both with the equipment and the risk of the buoy becoming tangled or trapped as the ship sinks.

Yes, it adds extra failure points
Turn on and throw in to the sea
If the situation allows take one onto your liferaft and then activate.

If the vessel has several, only activate one and keep the others until the battery runs out on the first one.

And thank you x2 again. Oddly you've managed to explain manual activation of these devices without once mentioning any need to swim down to a sunken ship to turn them on!

 

[Steve]

Everything in your quote here is wrong. It's all stuff you made up.You are either deluded or deliberately telling us lies.

Some of us actually own a a beacon and have it fitted to their yacht
They know how it works and what the procedure is for deploying

Don't try and ******** us.

No, everything in that post is properly cited and linked. You can tell because Vixen did not post “IMO”.

 

[JayUtah]

I didn't want to make assumptions about something I know little to nothing about, I've heard that can make one look foolish! But would it be fair to say that best practice would be that the beacons are activated before the ship sinks rather than relying on the automatic activation?

Yes. Immersion activation is a fail-safe. It’s always better to call for help explicitly when you need it and where possible rather than assume some automation will do it for you.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Yes. Immersion activation is a fail-safe. It’s always better to call for help explicitly when you need it and where possible rather than assume some automation will do it for you.

How dare you and Andy disagree with Vixen! I mean it's not like you've worked in marine engineering and Andy is a sailor with his own boat, and Vixen has thought really hard about this and it doesn't make sense to her. Check mate, kemo sabe?