Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[MarkCorrigan]

Please provide the quote about muzzle velocity. I am pretty sure I would not have claimed to know all about muzzle velocity. I do know that various people swore blind that 900mph was impossible.

No, that's not what happened.

In this post you write

You had better contact the Maritime Museum in Greenwich without further ado - tout suite - to urgently let them know that their animated graphics for the kiddies are all wrong. Let them know post-haste that you know someone on an internet forum called LondonJohn who can fix it for them.

Let us know how you get on!

In response to me (not LondonJohn) saying this:

Wait, do you think that muzzle velocity IS the velocity of the projectile?

Because that would be even more hilariously embarrassing.

But even before that In response to me stating

Oh my god this is embarrassing. Muzzle velocity is not the same as velocity of the projectile in flight.

You responded with a laughing dog emoji.

So yes, you DID claim that the muzzle velocity of the cannonball (900mph) was the velocity of the cannonball in flight by virtue of mocking anyone who tried to correct you or told you that you were wrong.

You aren't even a little ashamed about this?

I couldn't give a toss whether you believe me or not.

It's not a case of believing you, it was literally impossible.



No answer to the welding point then?

 

[Vixen]

I've thought about it. If a ship is in distress and still on the surface, an activated distress beacon will help locate the ship. If the ship is no longer in the surface, having the distress beacon detach from the ship and float will enable rescuers to locate the area where survivors from the ship are likely to be. OK, this is not ideal because it relies upon someone being able to activate the beacon, which is presumably the reason for the later change in the regulations.

Question for posters other than Vixen: for the automatically activated beacons, is it still possible to activate them manually before the ship sinks?

I am going to answer anyway. Of course you can activate any EPIRB manually. If it is encased in a cage with an HRU, you simply open the cage, remove the EPIRB and it begins to emit a signal immediately. (Although if someone has put in a manual EPIRB, you may have to press a button.)

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Riddle me this: I am sure a manual EPIRB would fit in the cage but how are you going to be able to activate it once the ship has capsized?

Answer the question.

This is a 15,000 tonne passenger ferry not a rowing boat.

You press the button before the ship sinks but after the emergency has started.

That was easy.

 

[zooterkin]

There is NO POINT having a manual EPIRB twinned with an HRU. This is because once the HRU activates the EPIRB, you are already four feet under water and nobody is going to be swimming to reach it. Especially not on a blustery night in the dark. The manual ones would be something you keep nearby or on a lifeboat or raft.

Think about it.

Well, I have, and, again, you're wrong, for more than one reason. First off, the HRU doesn't activate the EPIRB, since we're talking about the manual type fitted to the MS Estonia (and since obsoleted).

A vessel in trouble, but not actually yet sunk, may activate their manual EPIRB. If the conditions are such that their location is changing rapidly, it would make sense to keep the EPIRB with the vessel whilst it's afloat. Having it in an HRU would mean that should the vessel subsequently sink, the EPIRB will be released at that location, without needing further attention from the crew.

 

[JayUtah]

I am going to answer anyway. Of course you can activate any EPIRB manually. If it is encased in a cage with an HRU, you simply open the cage, remove the EPIRB and it begins to emit a signal immediately. (Although if someone has put in a manual EPIRB, you may have to press a button.)

Great! Now imagine that your crew is undertrained and nobody turns on the EPIRBs when they’re supposed to before the ship sinks. It’s not like the crew knows what’s going to happen before it happens. The EPIRBs float free when the ship sinks. But they’re not transmitting because they aren’t the automatically activated kind.

Isn’t it remarkable that the world isn’t limited to what you can imagine?

 

[zooterkin]

A manual version needs to be activated by pressing a button. It doesn't need an HRU to auto-release it and activate the satellite signal.

No-one said it did. That doesn't stop you putting a manual EPIRB in an HRU so it can be released if the vessel sinks; obviously, you have to manually switch the EPIRB on in the case of emergency. The clumsiness of this arrangement will have been a factor in why the regulations were changed to require EPIRBs to be automatically activated.

 

[zooterkin]

That looks to be erroneous.

I wonder about your ability to assess evidence when you can't even tell when your own posts are accurate. In this case, you were actually correct but dismissed that out of hand.

 

[GlennB]

1. OK, so most people don't use and oxy-acetyline flamer in their living room. I was wrong to assume you would be in protective surroundings.
...

This is such pile of bollocks that it's actually offensive.

I pointed out, way back then, that a measly candle flame (let alone gas cooker flame, butane cigarette lighter flame etc etc) easily exceeded the temperature that your source claimed required laboratory conditions. Now you're talking about oxy-acetylene and 'protective surroundings' ?? What the actual **** are you rambling on about?

 

[Steve]

This is such pile of bollocks that it's actually offensive.

I pointed out, way back then, that a measly candle flame (let alone gas cooker flame, butane cigarette lighter flame etc etc) easily exceeded the temperature that your source claimed required laboratory conditions. Now you're talking about oxy-acetylene and 'protective surroundings' ?? What the actual **** are you rambling on about?

Desperate times call for desperate, and irrelevant, posts. Deflecting from facts is imperative.

 

[Vixen]

Well, I have, and, again, you're wrong, for more than one reason. First off, the HRU doesn't activate the EPIRB, since we're talking about the manual type fitted to the MS Estonia (and since obsoleted).

A vessel in trouble, but not actually yet sunk, may activate their manual EPIRB. If the conditions are such that their location is changing rapidly, it would make sense to keep the EPIRB with the vessel whilst it's afloat. Having it in an HRU would mean that should the vessel subsequently sink, the EPIRB will be released at that location, without needing further attention from the crew.

If the EPIRB is automatically activated on release of the HRU it is not a manually activated EPIRB. When inspecting the auto EPIRB in it's case, it has to be lifted up to see if the lights come on. It then has to be immediately switched off before the signal gets to the COPAS satellites and place back in its set position.

In the case of Estonia, the Rockwater Surveyors discovered that both EPIRB cages were empty and one HRU was recovered.

Now, if someone knew how to open the EPIRB cage to grab hold of the manual EPPIRB then they would have also known that if there is no small flashing standby light then it is switched off. Anyone with the authority to take out the EPIRB would know to (a) switch it on and (b) chuck it in the water.

So, the EPIRB's were ejected by the HRU's. They were found switched off and untuned off the coast of Estonia.

Their batteries were not flat but fully charge. Logs show they had been recently inspected by the ship's electricians. This inspection involves ensuring the networks are connected and tuned. The Estonia EPIRBS were (a) switched off and (b) not tuned, despite all indications of good care of the product (full battery) and with an HRU.

This leads to the point that given there was a paucity of communications between 01:00 and 01:54 and the EPIRB's being switched off despite being successfully ejected, if not activated for some reason, then the question has to be asked, who turned them off, or removed them from the satisfactory operating condition they were in when inspected the week before.

This all seems to add up to the billet-doux sent out by a party with a message, together with the sinking at Swedish midnight and at the halfway point in the journey, together with ensuring Stockholm Coastguard did not get the Mayday until almost an hour later.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You're insisting that if it's manual activation it must be manual release. That's just not true.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There is NO POINT having a manual EPIRB twinned with an HRU.

Yep. It doesn't provide any useful benefit. We get that. But that doesn't stop anyone storing their float-free manually-activated EPIRB in a hydrostatic release holder.

Your claim that *only* auto EPIRBs have auto release holders is just an assumption you made up.

 

[zooterkin]

If the EPIRB is automatically activated on release of the HRU it is not a manually activated EPIRB.

Again, irrelevant. If the the EPIRB is not automatically activated on release of the HRU it is a manually activated EPIRB, which is the case for the Kannad 406 F.

 

[zooterkin]

Yep. It doesn't provide any useful benefit. We get that. But that doesn't stop anyone storing their float-free manually-activated EPIRB in a hydrostatic release holder.

There is a limited use case for them, see a few recent post above, but it's not a great solution which is why the regulations changed.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sorry but the information you refer to is incorrect.

The Rockwater Survey was commissioned by the Swedish/Estonian/Finnish governments, or their official bodies, which was an independent company (American, I believe) that sent in expert skilled naval personnel to survey the wreck. Rockwater confirms categorically in writing in their report that they recovered the Hydrostatic Release Unit of one of the EPIRBs. This is official. An HRU proves the EPIRB was an automatically activated one model (although it has to be set up and tuned on instalment.

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53174962696_a8117506bb_c.jpg[/qimg]


Rockwater is an official source.

Please now cease claiming that this is 'nonsense that has been dismissed'.

See picture of the HRU in the diver's hand above, and see circa 1:32:00 onwards here of the thing being recovered.

The beacons were recovered. They were turned off.
When they were activated they broadcast at the strength and for the time expected
They were in good working order.
They were manual activation and had floated free but they hadn't been turned on
I would guess that nobody thought of doing it as there wasn't a procedure in place that designed specific Watchmen to do it and the ship sank quickly

Anything else you writing obfuscation and misdirection.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Vixen you now seem to be retreading the path of trying to claim they were automatic immersion-activated types with a manual off switch which could prevent activation. Can you show us which model had those features?

 

[Andy_Ross]

All I'm asking is if the F series was automatically activated, like the AF series, so I suspect I should be ok. Or they'll ask for more information from me if they respond and I'll provide it then.

Both beacons were recovered in working order but they hadn't been activated.
It's in the report as are the tests done and their results.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Read lines 2 and 3 of page 11 Rockwater Survey carefully. The presence of the HRU in the empty cage tells you it did what it says on the tin (or should have).

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53174417682_a9421b20cd_c.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53174417257_6b80f8821d_c.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53175209274_f8c397ac9e_c.jpg[/qimg]

Rock water never saw the beacons, they were not there. They were recovered later. One by a fishing boat and the other from a beach.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

There is a limited use case for them, see a few recent post above, but it's not a great solution which is why the regulations changed.

Not having the automatic activation is very sub optimal, but I think you'll find that automatic ones also have manual activation because that limited case use is actually better than waiting until the ship sinks.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The regulations relating to EPIRB's changed arising from the recommendation pursuant to the Herald of Free Enterprise accident. SOLAS in 1991 recommended that

"not
later than 1 August 1993, requiring the carriage of a float-free satellite
EPIRB on every ship as part of the global maritime distress and safety system".


So certainly Estonia conformed to this standard and as verified by Rockwater examining the EPIRB cages.

The regulations for immersion activated beacons were changed because of the Estonia. Not the HOFE.