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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Vixen said:
You don't have to see an explosion to know one. I can recall the IRA bombs going off in London without seeing them.
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So it's impossible for them to be mistaken?

Also you completely ignored my point again. That's a habit with you isn't it? Refusing to actually address the points people make and arguing a tangent I mean.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Right! So we've got reports of someone hearing an explosion. Do you think this means there WAS an explosion?
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I am entirely neutral and objective. If a large number of independent witnesses report the same thing individually and without having seen the news or chatted to one another, I see no reason to disbelieve them. That was their experience. They own their experience, not you. Whether or not the events can be attributed to the bow visor falling off is just your presumption because you don't like to think about uncomfortable things and prefer a platitude in its place. That is fine. But not everybody has that attitude.
 
Vixen said:
You are incorrect; there is ample witness testimony to this effect.

You say you dropped a slate on a concrete floor that was louder than some gunshots you have heard. Suppose I told you that what you heard 'could be caused by something else'?
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Well then, you'll need some evidence of a bomb going off in my garage at the exact moment my clumsy ass dropped some tiles onto the floor.

Oh and gimme a link to the report, and a page number, or witnesses who say they heard an explosion, not: loud noise that may have been an explosion.
 
Vixen said:
The regulations changing doesn't obviate the auto status of the Estonia EPIRBS, as testified.

As for your claim that you proved they were manual, recollections may vary.
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What 'audio status '

Recollection isn't important, the already posted evidence is what counts.
Stop relying on your obviously faulty recollection
 
Vixen said:
I am entirely neutral and objective. If a large number of independent witnesses report the same thing individually and without having seen the news or chatted to one another, I see no reason to disbelieve them. That was their experience. They own their experience, not you. Whether or not the events can be attributed to the bow visor falling off is just your presumption because you don't like to think about uncomfortable things and prefer a platitude in its place. That is fine. But not everybody has that attitude.
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That doesn't answer my question. Stop dodging.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
So it's impossible for them to be mistaken?

Also you completely ignored my point again. That's a habit with you isn't it? Refusing to actually address the points people make and arguing a tangent I mean.
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Not everything is either /or. If 40 survivors, or how ever many it was all reported something similar and consistent, whether I believe them or not, is neither here nor there. I want to understand what it is they are reporting and the chronology. Someone on the internet saying, oh they can't have experienced what they say they experienced means nothing to me and does nothing to solve what it was they experienced.
 
Vixen said:
You don't have to see an explosion to know one. I can recall the IRA bombs going off in London without seeing them.
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I wondered how long it would be until your IRA bombs came in to it.
 
Vixen said:
Not everything is either /or. If 40 survivors, or how ever many it was all reported something similar and consistent, whether I believe them or not, is neither here nor there. I want to understand what it is they are reporting and the chronology. Someone on the internet saying, oh they can't have experienced what they say they experienced means nothing to me and does nothing to solve what it was they experienced.
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Except that I'm not basing it simply off my own say so. You're avoiding the questions I'm asking because I think you know that and don't want to face it. It's much easier and more convenient for you to keep insinuating that I'm calling them liars or only rejecting their explanation of their experience because I want to.
 
Vixen said:
Because I find this type of debate extremely boring. The kind that runs, 'A man saw a dog'. 'No, he might just be imagining it; it might have been a cat he saw', etc. etc. <YAWN>
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Nice try. You are making claims about how witnesses interpreted their sensory perceptions and what implications that has for an investigation. There is a science around that. Your desire to ignore it doesn't make it go away. Your insistence that we simply accept your say-so about it is arrogant and rude.
 
Vixen said:
Psychologist Loftus was roped in to support Ghislaine Maxwell's trial to claim that all of Maxwell's accusers had 'false memory'. Give her $50 and she'll say whatever you want her to say.
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So despite all your indignant crowing, you can't talk about the psychology. It seems your intellectual capacity on this point is limited to vaguely accusing people of fraud.

Why are you so deathly afraid to engage on a topic in which you have claimed to be an expert?
 
lobosrul5 said:
Well then, you'll need some evidence of a bomb going off in my garage at the exact moment my clumsy ass dropped some tiles onto the floor.

Oh and gimme a link to the report, and a page number, or witnesses who say they heard an explosion, not: loud noise that may have been an explosion.
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You can read the anthologized signed police statements here:

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia final report/21.3.htm


By the way only, one of the survivors was English so these are translations from Swedish mainly and possibly other languages, so any translation is open to interpretation by whoever translated them.
 
Andy_Ross said:
What 'audio status '

Recollection isn't important, the already posted evidence is what counts.
Stop relying on your obviously faulty recollection
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This is what it said in Helsingin Sanomat 25.1.1995:

Estonia's satellite buoys revealed to be intact SUBSCRIBERS https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003402022.html JROTKO Assistant 25.1.1995 2:00 TALLINNA - The Estonian EPIRB satellite buoys were in working order, although the message they automatically sent did not progress to the alarm system for some reason. Estonian and Finnish experts experimented with buoys detached from sunken Estonia on Tuesday with icebreaker Tarmo. According to Estonian radio, the buoys sent four hours of radio communications, which should come via satellite to the ground station. The next step is to study the operation of the ground stations to find out where the automatically triggered alert message disappeared. Satellite alerts for the Baltic Sea region are received in Bodö, Norway, which transmits the data to the nearest marine rescue centre. Satellite alerts in the Baltic Sea may also be printed in Falmoutht in England or Toulouse in France. In connection with estonia's accident, people were surprised at the lack of a satellite alert. The buoys were later found stranded on the Estonian coast.
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I get that you have convinced yourself they were manual but you are incorrect.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Except that I'm not basing it simply off my own say so. You're avoiding the questions I'm asking because I think you know that and don't want to face it. It's much easier and more convenient for you to keep insinuating that I'm calling them liars or only rejecting their explanation of their experience because I want to.
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I haven't insinuated that you were calling them liars. What I said was that you appear to prefer to handwave away a thing dismissively rather than look into it.

For example, you scoffed at the witnesses inside one of the WTC on 9/11 having heard what they perceived as explosions. <fx hand wave>
 
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