Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[MarkCorrigan]

He certainly was claiming that it was an ordinary deportation (not "an ordinary deportation" in direct quote quotation marks). That is the sense he intended and that is the sense he conveyed.

Absolute lie. I know it's a lie because I made it very clear what my claim was, and no one else had difficulty understanding it. Just you, for some reason.

He did not in any way understand the pair had been disappeared.

Sorry, are you now trying to make out that he agreed with me and without demur that it was a disappearance?

Because they weren't. It was not an act that rose to the legal definition of a disappearance.

But it wasn't 'illegal'. It was rubber-stamped by a government official, and as noted by the UN tribunal.

That doesn't make it legal, Vixen. That just means someone in the government okayed an illegal action.

You do not understand the law. You are simply wrong.

The illegal part was Sweden allowing its border officers to be subordinated to the officers of a foreign power (CIA),

Nope. The illegal part was that the men were detained and deported without due process to a country noted to be a user of torture. That violated Swedens own laws as well as the international laws regarding deportation to torture states.

who enabled the two men to be subjected to torture by sending them to the centre they were sent to.

The fact it was their home country, Egypt, was just circumstantial, they could have just as easily been sent to Guatanamo Bay. It was nothing to do with 'Being deported back to your own country', which is what is usually meant.

But I clarified that it was because they were deported back to Egypt and that it was a torture state.

You do understand you're the only person making the claims that you are, right? That no one else agrees with you? Do you understand why that is?

ETA:

How can it be 'illegal' if it was signed off by a lawmaker official?

WOW. Wow. That's one hell of an insight into your mind and understanding of the law.

Jesus christ.

 

[Vixen]

Highly unlikely given the state of the war and intelligence services at the time.

You know this is part of my field of study, right? Strategic studies AND intelligence studies are both things I did at uni as part of my degree.



Evidence for this claim please.

Also even if SEARCHLIGHT moles did say this, that doesn't make it true. You know that right?

You know that we can trace the origins of Combat 18, right? That we know the players involved in the formation and what brought them together?

Then how come you didn't know of the CIA and Sweden helping Estonia to set up their own intelligence agency after the KGB/GRU were kicked out?

SEARCHLIGHT is pretty good as it gets individuals to infiltrate far right groups and report back on the ground.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Scene goes like this:
<snip>

I notice that you didn't change the absurd stuff I wrote so much as embellish it with further layers of crazy.

In your version, the Swedish prime minister learns that a ship the Russians had threatened to sink may in fact be sinking, and he immediately orders not a rescue mission but an obviously impossible secret kidnap mission to locate and abduct all the ship's officers, without being noticed, while everyone else is desperately trying to save lives.

Why? On what planet does that make a scrap of sense? It's clearly nuts.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Then how come you didn't know of the CIA and Sweden helping Estonia to set up their own intelligence agency after the KGB/GRU were kicked out?

Your assumption I didn't know is based on...?

I wasn't aware they were moving ex Soviet equipment on the Estonia, that is true. Just because it's my field of study doesn't mean I know everything of course. I'm glad you provided that information. It was interesting.

That doesn't, of course, mean that the Estonia disaster was anything to do with the CIA.

SEARCHLIGHT is pretty good as it gets individuals to infiltrate far right groups and report back on the ground.

I didn't ask if they were, in your opinion, good. I asked for evidence that they made the claim and pointed out that their claim doesn't rise to the level of evidence for anything.

We know who founded Combat 18. It was not MI5.

 

[quadraginta]

Mark Corrigan did claim it was an ordinary deportation. You and he can play semantics all you like but like the claim today by Michelle Donelan (to illustrate the faux debating technique) it doesn't change the thrust of what I said.

Your searching for the exact words rather than the obvious meaning is a classic example of evading the point being made.

The "exact words" seem to be of your "obvious meaning". Not anyone else's.

So. What point are you trying to evade?

 

[quadraginta]

How can it be 'illegal' if it was signed off by a lawmaker official?

[snip]

There is something almost deliciously ironic about you making a statement like that.

For most of this thread you have done little but make insinuations if not outright claims about officials doing illegal or unethical things.

Get a grip. You don't seem to be able to hang on to your own premises.

 

[Vixen]

I notice that you didn't change the absurd stuff I wrote so much as embellish it with further layers of crazy.

In your version, the Swedish prime minister learns that a ship the Russians had threatened to sink may in fact be sinking, and he immediately orders not a rescue mission but an obviously impossible secret kidnap mission to locate and abduct all the ship's officers, without being noticed, while everyone else is desperately trying to save lives.

Why? On what planet does that make a scrap of sense? It's clearly nuts.

You have it back to front. Bildt was informed by the intelligence services within moments of the disaster becoming apparent. In fact, he was at a goodbye party with Party members, having just lost the election. However, there was a handover period, which is why he was still in charge.

Do you really think Bildt wasn't fully appraised by the KSI/MUST (military intelligence) and do you really believe that his immediate thought was 'a strong wave must have caused the bow visor to fall off'?

As you know, communications were down. the Stockholm coast guard was informed by a lorry driver of the mayday. There was a communications blackout save for very rudimentary NMT handphones and one to one radio. The accident started circa 01:00 change of watch. Stockholm did not get the mayday until 01:54 (Estonia time). Of course first priority is rescue. All survivors were escorted to hospital, put initially in separate wards and interviewed by police and security police with interpreters. That would have been the case for all of them. One survivor said he resented being made to get on a bus as though he was in custody.

Of course the authorities are going to be suspicious if a passenger ferry carrying 1,000 passengers and crew suddenly sinks in half an hour with no trace and suspicious lack of communications.

As something like IIRC 55 of the 136 survivors were crew and the vast majority of them, all inhabitants of the upper decks, then it is entirely plausible that the Estonia crew, having just come off duty and those adjacent to the Voronins' cabin, such as Capt. Piht, who was perfectly fit and healthy, did manage to get on lifeboats or life rafts. Having been rescued and identified why wouldn't they be expected to undergo intense interrogation as to what happened?

BTW there wasn't 'just one medal for one guy'. Many of the helicopter team members received honours (in Finland this happens on Independence Day 6 Dec, in the UK New Year's honours). Whilst Ensign Ken's rescue helicopter teams received the usual sort of medal ('Gold, Silver, [without sword]') Ensign Ken alone received the equivalent of the Victoria Cross! A Gold Medal with Sword.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Försvarsmaktens_förtjänstmedalj_(1995–2009)

Truth is stranger than fiction. The Victoria Cross, like the Mannerheim Cross is only awarded for valour in war.

The award is a combat award but is not part of the war decorations .

According to an early edition of Aftonbladet, Ken was a hero because at 2:00 am he took seven (plus one who died) survivors all the way to Stockholm, when Turku and Hanko were much nearer and crew were ordered by the OSC to take survivors to Utö. Yet the JAIC claim he didn't even arrive until getting onto 04:00am, when he himself had to be rescued.

It is clear that the original story has been censored. The fact he got the highest Swedish military medal can be explained by his rescuing the nine Estonians, who of course had a high chance of all being in the same boat or raft. They were housed together on the vessel.

 

[Vixen]

Your assumption I didn't know is based on...?

I wasn't aware they were moving ex Soviet equipment on the Estonia, that is true. Just because it's my field of study doesn't mean I know everything of course. I'm glad you provided that information. It was interesting.

That doesn't, of course, mean that the Estonia disaster was anything to do with the CIA.



I didn't ask if they were, in your opinion, good. I asked for evidence that they made the claim and pointed out that their claim doesn't rise to the level of evidence for anything.

We know who founded Combat 18. It was not MI5.

If the accident was sabotage because of the smuggling of Soviet materiel and Space technology then it explains why it was classified because the KSI for CIA should not have been using a public passenger ferry for such a dangerous mission.

So who founded Combat18?

 

[JayUtah]

If the accident was sabotage because of the smuggling of Soviet materiel and Space technology then it explains why it was classified because the KSI for CIA should not have been using a public passenger ferry for such a dangerous mission.

Pure, unadulterated conspiracy-mongering. Are you even pretending anymore that all you're posting are current events?

 

[Vixen]

Pure, unadulterated conspiracy-mongering. Are you even pretending anymore that all you're posting are current events?

It is officially minuted by the Rikstag [= Senate, Parliament, Congress]. Not Fox News.


https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

 

[JayUtah]

It is officially minuted by the Rikstag [= Senate, Parliament, Congress]. Not Fox News.


https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

Yeah, nothing in there about sabotage.

The report further substantiates that while there is evidence that contraband had been transported on other occasions, there was no evidence any had been transported on the night MS Estonia sank. This has been debunked for you over and over again.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

If the accident was sabotage because of the smuggling of Soviet materiel and Space technology

That's a very, very big if. You've got no evidence for it, just supposition that reads like a terrible spy novel.

then it explains why it was classified because the KSI for CIA should not have been using a public passenger ferry for such a dangerous mission.

I don't disagree that transporting Soviet materiel on a passenger ferry was an incredibly dumb idea. I simply disagree that this dumb idea suggests it was sunk deliberately. You've not provided any evidence.

So who founded Combat18?

We've been through this before. It was founded by the BNP as a party security group to prevent anti-fascists attacking the party members. It expanded it's remit later, but it's original purpose was protection for the BNP.

Charlie Sargent and Harold Covington were among the founders, but they were not alone in it. There was an accusation that Charlie Sargent was a spy for the British security services but this wasn't true. Sargent attempted to frame his chief accuser by murdering another member.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You have it back to front. Bildt was informed by the intelligence services within moments of the disaster becoming apparent. In fact, he was at a goodbye party with Party members, having just lost the election. However, there was a handover period, which is why he was still in charge.

Do you really think Bildt wasn't fully appraised by the KSI/MUST (military intelligence) and do you really believe that his immediate thought was 'a strong wave must have caused the bow visor to fall off'?

As you know, communications were down. the Stockholm coast guard was informed by a lorry driver of the mayday. There was a communications blackout save for very rudimentary NMT handphones and one to one radio. The accident started circa 01:00 change of watch. Stockholm did not get the mayday until 01:54 (Estonia time). Of course first priority is rescue. All survivors were escorted to hospital, put initially in separate wards and interviewed by police and security police with interpreters. That would have been the case for all of them. One survivor said he resented being made to get on a bus as though he was in custody.

Of course the authorities are going to be suspicious if a passenger ferry carrying 1,000 passengers and crew suddenly sinks in half an hour with no trace and suspicious lack of communications.

As something like IIRC 55 of the 136 survivors were crew and the vast majority of them, all inhabitants of the upper decks, then it is entirely plausible that the Estonia crew, having just come off duty and those adjacent to the Voronins' cabin, such as Capt. Piht, who was perfectly fit and healthy, did manage to get on lifeboats or life rafts. Having been rescued and identified why wouldn't they be expected to undergo intense interrogation as to what happened?

BTW there wasn't 'just one medal for one guy'. Many of the helicopter team members received honours (in Finland this happens on Independence Day 6 Dec, in the UK New Year's honours). Whilst Ensign Ken's rescue helicopter teams received the usual sort of medal ('Gold, Silver, [without sword]') Ensign Ken alone received the equivalent of the Victoria Cross! A Gold Medal with Sword.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Försvarsmaktens_förtjänstmedalj_(1995–2009)

Truth is stranger than fiction. The Victoria Cross, like the Mannerheim Cross is only awarded for valour in war.

The award is a combat award but is not part of the war decorations .

According to an early edition of Aftonbladet, Ken was a hero because at 2:00 am he took seven (plus one who died) survivors all the way to Stockholm, when Turku and Hanko were much nearer and crew were ordered by the OSC to take survivors to Utö. Yet the JAIC claim he didn't even arrive until getting onto 04:00am, when he himself had to be rescued.

It is clear that the original story has been censored. The fact he got the highest Swedish military medal can be explained by his rescuing the nine Estonians, who of course had a high chance of all being in the same boat or raft. They were housed together on the vessel.

Everything in this post was gone through at great length earlier in the thread.
All your claims were shown to be lies and fiction, from lorry drivers warning the coastguard, communications blackouts and what medals were awarded

You can read back through the thread and find multi page rebuttals of everything you post, all with references cited

And yet you ignore it all and post the same **** again

Are you ill?

 

[Vixen]

Everything in this post was gone through at great length earlier in the thread.
All your claims were shown to be lies and fiction, from lorry drivers warning the coastguard, communications blackouts and what medals were awarded

You can read back through the thread and find multi page rebuttals of everything you post, all with references cited

And yet you ignore it all and post the same **** again

Are you ill?

I am very well, thank you for asking. I note you are now desperately trying to employ the last-chance-saloon-logical-fallacy-of-a-scoundrel: the ad hominem.

As I said, this is not a topic about belief such as in religion or philosophy so whether or not you believe it, is completely irrelevant. As George Orwell remarked: "However much you deny the truth it goes on existing".

As an example, you have this idea that your insisting that the EPIRB's did not work because it needed a couple of crew members to take it off the wall and chuck it in the water makes it so. Nothing will dissever you of your belief that if you say it was a manual EPIRB* then it becomes one by virtue of your assertion despite the marine communications experts and the chief coastguard explaining to the JAIC their bafflement as to why there were no EPIRB signals, despite their being programmed to automatically trigger when in contact with four feet of water.



*"Oh no, not the flipping EPIRB's again!"

 

[MarkCorrigan]

That's...that's not an ad hominem.

ETA: Also it isn't "[our] belief" it was manual. People actually looked up the specifications and found it was manual. They then produced the evidence that it was manual. You just refused to accept it.

 

[Vixen]

That's a very, very big if. You've got no evidence for it, just supposition that reads like a terrible spy novel.


I don't disagree that transporting Soviet materiel on a passenger ferry was an incredibly dumb idea. I simply disagree that this dumb idea suggests it was sunk deliberately. You've not provided any evidence.


We've been through this before. It was founded by the BNP as a party security group to prevent anti-fascists attacking the party members. It expanded it's remit later, but it's original purpose was protection for the BNP.

Charlie Sargent and Harold Covington were among the founders, but they were not alone in it. There was an accusation that Charlie Sargent was a spy for the British security services but this wasn't true. Sargent attempted to frame his chief accuser by murdering another member.

What do you mean 'no evidence'? Half the survivors testified independently of each other in their signed statements to the police of having heard what sounded like an explosion or a series of explosions, together with a shudder and a violent list, the massive hole in the hull, the eye witnesses seeing a military truck being loaded at the last minute, delaying departure by fifteen minutes, the communications blackout...how does that qualify as 'no evidence'? Sheesh. Talk about arguing 'on paper'.

Where did the 'accusation' re Charlie Sargent come from unless someone was leaking information?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Do you really think Bildt wasn't fully appraised by the KSI/MUST (military intelligence) and do you really believe that his immediate thought was 'a strong wave must have caused the bow visor to fall off'?

I don't know who told the prime minister a ferry was in trouble, but I long ago learned not to trust your claiming to know such answers.

No, I don't believe your story about Bildt telling everyone it must have been a big wave. I long ago said I regard your claim he said it as complete fabrication.

All of this has been flogged to death over and over and over, and it's not getting any less absurd with each rehash.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Of course the authorities are going to be suspicious if a passenger ferry carrying 1,000 passengers and crew suddenly sinks in half an hour with no trace and suspicious lack of communications.

You claim they spontaneously launched an obviously impossible kidnap plot before those facts were established. What's their motive?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It is clear that the original story has been censored.

It is clear your preferred source's interpretation of what happened is nuts. You deny facts to sustain a fantasy.

 

[Vixen]

I don't know who told the prime minister a ferry was in trouble, but I long ago learned not to trust your claiming to know such answers.

No, I don't believe your story about Bildt telling everyone it must have been a big wave. I long ago said I regard your claim he said it as complete fabrication.

All of this has been flogged to death over and over and over, and it's not getting any less absurd with each rehash.

What do you mean you 'don't believe your story about Bildt telling everyone it must have been a big wave'? It was in all the national papers by the next day. The same morning Bildt was demanding all ferries should have their bow visors checked and Kari Lehtola the Finnish appointee is quoted as saying it was caused by 'a few strong waves'. Within days the general PR damage-limitation was 'it is just like the Herald of Free Enterprise: nothing to see here, move along'. Think about it, how credible is this behaviour given 500 Swedish citizens, men, women, children, babies and the elderly were suddenly killed? It is obviously classified information and I am sure they have got their good reasons for it. WWI and WWII are still in continuation to some degree or other, it has just been dormant, with the occasional flare ups, such as Ukraine, but make no mistake, a post-cold war is/was still going on.

Your claim that you don't believe Bildt said it was the bow visor the same day shows you are unable to face a matter of recorded fact. I am actually flattered that you believe it is my made up fact.