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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Vixen said:
Already, within hours of the 'accident', the official reason for it was the 'bow visor fell off due to a few strong waves'*, as quoted by Lehtola, the Finnish chairman of the JAIC in Helsingin Sanomat the next day.

So already a hurry to cover things up from the get-go.
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Pink Floyd said:
And you run, and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death
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And here we go again.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13732192#post13732192

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13732941&postcount=2075

I wonder if you will remember it this time.
 
Vixen, based on the vast amount of information you have apparently collected over the years, can you answer one straightforward question?

What, in your own words, caused the Estonia to sink?
 
GlennB said:
Ooh goodie! Is it nuclear waste time? I've been waiting patiently for this.
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My second favourite part of the thread.

My favourite being where it was declared that temperatures beyond a specific point (I forget the exact temperature) were impossible outside a lab, despite the temperature given being way under what is needed to do welding.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
My second favourite part of the thread.

My favourite being where it was declared that temperatures beyond a specific point (I forget the exact temperature) were impossible outside a lab, despite the temperature given being way under what is needed to do welding.
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I recall it was a claim by one of Vixen's sources, and it was pointed out that candle flames exceed the temperature mentioned. Funny stuff :)

eta: It was Vixen in fact, post 2633 of part II of this stuff -

"To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory. There is no way 'welding' would cause the type of deformation as seen here ..."
 
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GlennB said:
I recall it was a claim by one of Vixen's sources, and it was pointed out that candle flames exceed the temperature mentioned. Funny stuff :)

eta: It was Vixen in fact, post 2633 of part II of this stuff -

"To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory. There is no way 'welding' would cause the type of deformation as seen here ..."
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That's the one. Good stuff.
 
Vixen said:
Already, within hours of the 'accident', the official reason for it was the 'bow visor fell off due to a few strong waves'*, as quoted by Lehtola, the Finnish chairman of the JAIC in Helsingin Sanomat the next day.

So already a hurry to cover things up from the get-go.

*This is probably a half-truth as the bow visor did fall off but not the entire picture. It will suffice until the incident is declassified and then people will see that Carl Bildt and the JAIC weren't actually lying per se, just economical about the real reason the bow visor did lead to such a stricken condition that a wave could knock it off.
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So a conspiracy theory, then.
 
JayUtah said:
So a conspiracy theory, then.
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Shhh, if Vixen can avoid saying "it was a conspiracy" or "conspiracy theory" that means she doesn't think it is one, much like avoiding making the declarative statement "you are a racist" means she hasn't called me one no matter how she much she implies it.
 
It's telling that seven cites were offered in support of the "ordinary deportation" assertion (none of which contained that phrase) when one that actually contained it would have sufficed.
 
I don't know what you mean, Vixen has stated today that making a mistake isn't the end of the world so I'm sure she can admit to it this time, kemo sabe?
 
JayUtah said:
My favorite is when she copied a bunch of gibberish generated by ChatGPT and smugly claimed it trumped what real people with actual expertise were correctly trying to tell her.
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Mine is still the claim that The Times had journalists ("who must have been British secret agents") embedded in the German front lines at Stalingrad and eavesdropping on German soldiers, and who were allowed to draw attention to their presence by publishing their accounts of this in The Times. The source for this was claimed as a regular column titled "Through German Eyes", which, while it might have superficially looked as if it was reporting what actual Germans thought, turned out to be a round-up of German media stories.

The particular column Vixen cited, that for 28th September 1943, was about what the German media were saying about the collapse of Italian fascism. The bit that mentioned Stalingrad says that the Italians were being used as
...scapegoats for all the military disasters which Germany has suffered in this war (including even Stalingrad); but it is the Italian generals and corps of officers who were chiefly blamed. The Italian private soldier is mostly described as a good fighter when in the company of German comrades. The Essener National Zeitung, quoting the opinion of a number of soldiers who had fought with the Italians both in Africa and Russia, says:-
The Italian private is fundamentally of a bad soldier, but his military leaders...​
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Possibly there were secret agents embedded in a German newsagents or library.
 
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