Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

Indeed, as can be seen in the Estonia Archive: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=bargning-skydd

The Swedish Maritime Administration (Sjöfartsverket) was tasked by the government to assess the technical and legal possibilities for a salvage operation. They delivered a first report on oct 11th.

They got a new task to dig into the details, including how this might affect the rescue personel when retrieving this amount of bodies. They delivered their report on dec 14th, saying that it was possible, but complicated.

In paralell, an ethics commiteee was appointed. They gave their report also on the 14th, recommending the site to be turned into a grave site, and not to be touched.

The Swedish government had talks with the governments of Finland and Estonia, as well as the party chairs for all parties represented in the Swedish parliament.

On the 15th, the government announced that Estonia would not be salvaged but rather to be turned into a protected grave site.

So that was how they "suddenly" changed their mind.

It also reads:

The government's decision caused great disappointment among large parts of the relatives.

Here you can listen to a conversation dealing with the possibilities of salvaging M/S Estonia, between the Norwegian Maritime Administration's then chief legal officer Johan Franson and representatives of the Analysis Group.

The issue of salvaging the dead was raised again in 1998 by the Analysis Group for the review of the Estonia disaster and its consequences . In its first report, the Analysis Group recommended that the bodies of the deceased be taken care of, identified and given a dignified burial.

The general convention is that military personnel are left to lie with their ship. These were civilians. The Baltic is relatively extremely shallow. It would have been feasible and viable to rescue the strickened drowned and recoup the captain, who was witnessed as being dead, for a forensic pathology examination as to what could have caused his forfeiting control of the vessel (you recall it was the third and fourth mates left to send out the Mayday).

As for concrete, that is normally used for suspected radioactivity, no?

 

[Vixen]

How could they be disappeared when we know where they are?

I get that you don't understand the concept but it would have been easy enough for you to appraise yourself as to what the rendition programme was about.

 

[GlennB]

Can you quote Mark calling it an ordinary deportation? He doesn't in any of the posts you linked to there.

How could they be disappeared when we know where they are?

Humpty Dumpty syndrome. Her words mean just what she chooses them to mean.

 

[Vixen]

Can you quote Mark calling it an ordinary deportation? He doesn't in any of the posts you linked to there.

Quote from Mark Corrigan: "It was a deportation."

Issue closed.

 

[zooterkin]

Quote from Mark Corrigan: "It was a deportation."

Issue closed.

Indeed it is. You have failed to show he called it an ordinary deportation.

 

[Vixen]

Humpty Dumpty syndrome. Her words mean just what she chooses them to mean.

Ignoramus syndrome: thinking that sticking one's head in the sand will make established and documented facts go away, specifically, of Sweden running rendition programmes in cahoots with the CIA, including the confirmed Swedish Rikstag minutes that the Swedish Military (above the government) did use the Estonia passenger ferry to smuggle out ex-Soviet Union military and space materiel and technology.

But denying a thing doesn't make it go away.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I get that you don't understand the concept but it would have been easy enough for you to appraise yourself as to what the rendition programme was about.

But they didn't disappear we know where they went and where they are

 

[Andy_Ross]

Round we go again

 

[Vixen]

Humpty Dumpty syndrome. Her words mean just what she chooses them to mean.

The correct reference is Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

 

[Vixen]

Indeed it is. You have failed to show he called it an ordinary deportation.

Stop fibbing. Mark Corrigan clearly wrote and continued to double/triple/quadruple/ ad infinitum down on it:

"It was a deportation. They were denied asylum and deported. That's what happened. " ~ Mark Corrigan

Absolutely nothing at all to do with being 'denied asylum'.


Carry on pretending he never said it when it is on record for anyone to look up!

 

[Vixen]

But they didn't disappear we know where they went and where they are

Short on the debating toolbox I see.

 

[zooterkin]

The correct reference is Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Do you ever check your facts before posting?

The correct correction would be to say that it's actually 'humpty dumptyism', not 'humpty dumpty syndrome', which is something else entirely.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumptyism

From the fictional character Humpty Dumpty in Lewis Caroll's Through the Looking-Glass, who, when asked what he meant by "glory", replies "I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'". Alice protests that this isn't the meaning of "glory" and Humpty Dumpty replies "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

 

[zooterkin]

Stop fibbing. Mark Corrigan clearly wrote and continued to double/triple/quadruple/ ad infinitum down on it:

"It was a deportation. They were denied asylum and deported. That's what happened. " ~ Mark Corrigan

Tellingly, you have snipped out the next couple of sentences, which were:
Yes, it went against Sweden's own rules on the matter but it was not them being "disappeared". What do you think being disappeared means Vixen?


It went against their own rules; how is that 'ordinary'?

Absolutely nothing at all to do with being 'denied asylum'.

We're currently waiting for you to show where Mark Corrigan said it was an ordinary deportation. Stop muddying the waters by bringing in irrelevant side issues.

Carry on pretending he never said it when it is on record for anyone to look up!

So, it should be easy for you to quote where he said it. Off you go, where does he say it was an ordinary deportation?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Short on the debating toolbox I see.

How is it a debate?
It's a matter of fact

 

[Vixen]

Tellingly, you have snipped out the next couple of sentences, which were:
Yes, it went against Sweden's own rules on the matter but it was not them being "disappeared". What do you think being disappeared means Vixen?


It went against their own rules; how is that 'ordinary'?

He was referring to the trivial fact of their not being able to speak to their lawyer not the human rights violation of being renditioned and actually subjected to torture as found by the court and accepted by Sweden.

"They were denied asylum" hahaha, that would be an ordinary deportation.

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 12

.

 

[Vixen]

How is it a debate?
It's a matter of fact

You have this quaintly charming but rather immature belief that if you deny something then it ain't so.

 

[Vixen]

How is it a debate?
It's a matter of fact

It is a statement of fact that the two Egyptian guys were renditioned by Sweden on behalf of the CIA and subjected to torture. No amount of evasive cleverness can change a fact.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Please see the findings of the following:



Do you confirm or deny that Sweden caused the rendition (= 'disappearance') of these two guys on behalf of the CIA. A simple yes or no will suffice.

Of course I deny this, because rendition /=disappearance.

Were it not for that one gratuitous addition, it would be a statement any reasonable person would agree with.

 

[Andy_Ross]

But they haven't disappeared

 

[Andy_Ross]

What does it have to do with the Estonia anyway, apart from being one of your usual squirrels?