Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

Citation, please.

Here you go:

Transport of defense equipment
The TV program Kalla fakta stated on 30 November 2004 that defense equipment was smuggled on the M/S Estonia on two occasions during September 1994 and that this was done on behalf of the Swedish defence. No responsible authority wanted to comment on the whole thing, but on 3 December the Government instructed the President of the Court of Appeal, Johan Hirschfeldt , to clarify the facts.

Hirschfeldt submitted his investigation to the Government on February 17, 2005. In it, Hirschfeldt notes that defense equipment was transported to Estonia on two occasions during September 1994. He also writes that there was nothing to indicate that defense equipment was transported on other occasions.

Click here to read the report

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

from the Rikstag's archives itself.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

No, at no point was I referring to a missing person or persons. I was always specifically referring to Sweden obeying the CIA and delivering persons the CIA wanted.

But I never said you were referring to missing persons. I said that your claim was that they had been legally disappeared. You're now trying to lie about what YOU said not just what I said.

You're really, REALLY bad at this.

Citation please. Absolute fiddlesticks.

Ok.

Oh dear. So if the CIA requested the UK extradite you to the USA without any court papers, you'd think that was 'just a deportation' when snatched whilst innocently strolling down Oxford Street and unceremoniously carted off to a private plane with no chance to speak to a lawyer, family of friends? Or is it only OK if that person is a certain demographic?
In any case, it was not legal no matter what heinous crime you might imagine such person may (or may not!) have committed.

BTW they were NOT 'denied asylum'. Their case was never heard.

The highlighted is clearly insinuation that I would be ok with being "snatched whilst innocently strolling down Oxford Street and unceremoniously carted off to a private plane with no chance to speak to a lawyer, family of friends? " if it was people of a certain demographic.

You do know how insinuation works, right?

 

[JayUtah]

This is all factual.

And none of it has anything to do with why the ship sank, despite all your desperate efforts to connect all of it together in some speculated conspiracy.

 

[Vixen]

Why haven't the Estonia crew members taken their case to a human rights tribunal?

They have never reappeared.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I am in a different time zone from you, if you are scurrilously implying I was posting on here whilst at work.

Actually I was responding to your accusation I was hiding behind someone else.

 

[JayUtah]

The person or persons have to be effectively removed first. We are talking about intention to enforce disappearance and its activation.

No. Enforced disappearance has a precise legal definition that is not satisfied by the events you describe. You were given a detailed legal analysis previously, which you did not address.

 

[Vixen]

But I never said you were referring to missing persons. I said that your claim was that they had been legally disappeared. You're now trying to lie about what YOU said not just what I said.

You're really, REALLY bad at this.



Ok.



The highlighted is clearly insinuation that I would be ok with being "snatched whilst innocently strolling down Oxford Street and unceremoniously carted off to a private plane with no chance to speak to a lawyer, family of friends? " if it was people of a certain demographic.

You do know how insinuation works, right?

You omitted context. The context being that I was responding to your post, which was as follows:

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
It was a deportation. They were denied asylum and deported. That's what happened. Yes, it went against Sweden's own rules on the matter but it was not them being "disappeared". What do you think being disappeared means Vixen?

It is readily apparent from this that the demographic involved, as referenced by you yourself, is 'asylum seekers'. Yes, it is a fact that people associate asylum seekers with negative attributes and xenophobia. However, the indisputable fact of the matter is that from the two men's obviously Muslim-origin names, you jumped to the conclusion they were asylum seekers and extrapolated from that, that they had been denied asylum and were thus, deported. That is you dropping a bollock, not me.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Hilarious. Keep it going Vixen, it's obvious to everyone else what you're doing.

ETA: I love that you read my mind and realised that I only thought they were asylum seekers from them having Muslim sounding names! That's an indisputable fact apparently!

Absolutely amazing.

 

[zooterkin]

No, at no point was I referring to a missing person or persons. I was always specifically referring to Sweden obeying the CIA and delivering persons the CIA wanted. Another example, is the delivery of former Soviet military equipment via the Estonia passenger ferry on the orders of the CIA, and as minuted by the Rikstag (senate). This is all factual.


Nothing to do with being an asylum seeker and deportations.

Here you go:

Transport of defense equipment
The TV program Kalla fakta stated on 30 November 2004 that defense equipment was smuggled on the M/S Estonia on two occasions during September 1994 and that this was done on behalf of the Swedish defence. No responsible authority wanted to comment on the whole thing, but on 3 December the Government instructed the President of the Court of Appeal, Johan Hirschfeldt , to clarify the facts.

Hirschfeldt submitted his investigation to the Government on February 17, 2005. In it, Hirschfeldt notes that defense equipment was transported to Estonia on two occasions during September 1994. He also writes that there was nothing to indicate that defense equipment was transported on other occasions.

Click here to read the report

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

from the Rikstag's archives itself.

Could you highlight the part that refers to the CIA? I'm having trouble seeing it.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Could you highlight the part that refers to the CIA? I'm having trouble seeing it.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Another example, is the delivery of former Soviet military equipment via the Estonia passenger ferry on the orders of the CIA, and as minuted by the Rikstag (senate). This is all factual.

Here you go:


https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

from the Rikstag's archives itself.

That does not support your statement above. The report that was submitted to the Swedish Parliament (Riksdag, not Rikstag) does not mention the USA or CIA, and specifically say:

Den utrustning som ingått i de två nämnda transporterna har avsetts för det svenska försvaret.

The equipment included in the two transports as mentioned above were intended for the Swedish defence.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh, also Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery were asylum seekers, so your continuing to paint my "assumption" that they were falls flat. Even if I had assumed it, which I didn't, I'd be correct.

 

[Mojo]

They have never reappeared.

They were never disappeared.

 

[Vixen]

Could you highlight the part that refers to the CIA? I'm having trouble seeing it.

Somewhere in the Rikstag's minutes you'll find that Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted any investigation of KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports. IOW KSI was exempt. Being military secret services would have classified everything, anyway.

KSI is roughly the Swedish equivalent of MI6.

 

[Vixen]

That does not support your statement above. The report that was submitted to the Swedish Parliament (Riksdag, not Rikstag) does not mention the USA or CIA, and specifically say:

The US veteran who was put in charge of Estonia's defence at the time and Carl Bildt, had well known links to the CIA as it was a longstanding cold war issue.

 

[zooterkin]

Somewhere in the Rikstag's minutes you'll find that Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted any investigation of KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports. IOW KSI was exempt. Being military secret services would have classified everything, anyway.

KSI is roughly the Swedish equivalent of MI6.

So, not the CIA, then?

 

[Here_to_learn]

Somewhere in the Rikstag's minutes you'll find that Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted any investigation of KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports. IOW KSI was exempt. Being military secret services would have classified everything, anyway.

KSI is roughly the Swedish equivalent of MI6.

Then you have to provide that.

Because the document you linked to - the actual report specifically mentions that

Vidare har jag hört f.d. generalmajoren Erik Rossander som vid den aktuella tiden var chef för den militära underrättelse- och säkerhetstjänsten vid Försvarsmakten, MUST, till vilket även kontoret för särskild inhämtning, KSI, hör.

Furthermore, I have heard the former Major General Erik Rossander, who at the time in question was head of the military intelligence and security service at the Armed Forces, MUST, to which the kontoret för särskild inhämtning, KSI, also belongs.

Again, what you claim is not supported by the facts.

 

[Vixen]

Indeed, as can be seen in the Estonia Archive: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=bargning-skydd

The Swedish Maritime Administration (Sjöfartsverket) was tasked by the government to assess the technical and legal possibilities for a salvage operation. They delivered a first report on oct 11th.

They got a new task to dig into the details, including how this might affect the rescue personel when retrieving this amount of bodies. They delivered their report on dec 14th, saying that it was possible, but complicated.

In paralell, an ethics commiteee was appointed. They gave their report also on the 14th, recommending the site to be turned into a grave site, and not to be touched.

The Swedish government had talks with the governments of Finland and Estonia, as well as the party chairs for all parties represented in the Swedish parliament.

On the 15th, the government announced that Estonia would not be salvaged but rather to be turned into a protected grave site.

So that was how they "suddenly" changed their mind.

Of course government proceedings are never 'sudden', are they? Recesses, agendas, attendees, co-opted committees have to be organised, as well as dates.

As I recall the then PM, Carl Bildt, during the election handover period, said on the same day of the 'accident' that the bodies would be returned home. Within hours he retracted it, as the defence chief (Svensson IIRC) advised against it. Already, within hours of the 'accident', the official reason for it was the 'bow visor fell off due to a few strong waves'*, as quoted by Lehtola, the Finnish chairman of the JAIC in Helsingin Sanomat the next day.

So already a hurry to cover things up from the get-go.

*This is probably a half-truth as the bow visor did fall off but not the entire picture. It will suffice until the incident is declassified and then people will see that Carl Bildt and the JAIC weren't actually lying per se, just economical about the real reason the bow visor did lead to such a stricken condition that a wave could knock it off.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Of course government proceedings are never 'sudden', are they? Recesses, agendas, attendees, co-opted committees have to be organised, as well as dates.

I'm happy to see that you can show that you were wrong when you previously called it "suddenly".

 

[GlennB]

...

*This is probably a half-truth as the bow visor did fall off but not the entire picture. It will suffice until the incident is declassified and then people will see that Carl Bildt and the JAIC weren't actually lying per se, just economical about the real reason the bow visor did lead to such a stricken condition that a wave could knock it off.

Ooh goodie! Is it nuclear waste time? I've been waiting patiently for this.